 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Terry Stibal
Date: 2005-02-08 15:31
Does anyone know the story on these relatively rare items?
I dimly recall that there was a stink when recordable CDs first were marketed to hoi polloi that the provision of the music CD-R would in some way account for the royalties due those who would have recordings made on same of their compositions. But, I only saw this in an overview article in Newsweek or some similar magazine.
One of the "pro" recording setups that we use requires CD-R (M) media, the other does not.
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Author: EEBaum
Date: 2005-02-08 15:42
They're not all that rare. AFAIK, the surcharge thing hasn't happened in the U.S, as I bought a pack of 50 Music CD-R for about $15 recently.
Regular CD-Rs are usually slightly lighter than the CDs you buy with music on them, so they have trouble playing in some players. The Music CD-Rs are heavier and usually have better results in non-computer CD players and recorders.
Often, they're in a different part of the store than regular CD-Rs, and not stocked in nearly as high of quantity.
-Alex
www.mostlydifferent.com
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Author: msloss
Date: 2005-02-08 16:15
The royalty stream is real, and would have made sense if consumer CD recorders had actually caught on. The idea was that the consumer decks would only recognize and burn the consumer CDs, forcing the user to pay the royalty and hopefully offset lost revenue to the artists. There was actually a way you could pry the door open on one of the first Philips consumer recorders to trick it into burning a regular computer CD, but future generations killed that work-around. What they didn't anticipate was the explosion of computer-based CD ripping. So much for that idea. You can use the cheap bulk CDRs to the same effect on your PC. Technology got ahead of the law.
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Author: Terry Stibal
Date: 2005-02-08 16:32
"The royalty stream is real, and would have made sense if consumer CD recorders had actually caught on. The idea was that the consumer decks would only recognize and burn the consumer CDs, forcing the user to pay the royalty and hopefully offset lost revenue to the artists."
That's what I recalled, if I read what you posted correctly. As I understood the overview that I saw, the royalty fee was "built into" the recording media, and then that money was passed on to the distribution firms (ASCAP BMI), thereby covering the use of the rights. Is this correct?
As it stands now, I won't burn disks of our group for distribution due to the royalty issue. If this supposition about the CD-R (M) is correct, that could change...
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Author: msloss
Date: 2005-02-08 17:49
For the higher priced consumer media, that is case. The incremental cost goes through the usual composer and performer channels to pay for lost receivables from copying. Much like with gas taxes, I'm sure the manufacturers and stores tacked on an additional profit and that the whole difference between computer and consumer CDRs isn't going to musicians.
The computer/"pro" CDRs that you can buy in cake packs from any computer store do not carry the royalty surcharge.
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Author: Terry Stibal
Date: 2005-02-08 20:10
"The computer/"pro" CDRs that you can buy in cake packs from any computer store do not carry the royalty surcharge."
That I already know. What I am asking is:
"Is there a "royalty fee" paid with the purchase price of CD-R (Music) disks, as I recall once reading that there was, said fee accounting for the price difference, and the purpose of said fee being to compensate artists for copying of their work?"
In short form:
"What is the purpose of the royalty fee paid with CD-R (Music) disks?"
"Who is being compensated with the moneys collected from this fee?"
And:
"What rights does the purchaser and user of CD-R (Music) gain from the payment of this fee?"
And, while you're at it:
"Where did all of the bass saxes from the 1920's, '30's and '40's go?"
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Author: msloss
Date: 2005-02-09 13:40
Was I really not clear?
Yes - there is a royalty fee on consumer music CD-Rs. No - the entire difference in price is not the royalty. The rest is profiteering on the part of the blank media manufacturer and the store.
The royalty fee is to compensate the artists for lost sales due to music copying.
What right would you expect to get for paying the royalty fee? You have the right to copy your purchased music for your personal use. This is much like insurance companies where everyone pays for fraud. People steal music -- everybody pays.
All of the vintage bass saxophones have been converted into urinals in swanky Art Deco-Revival Midtown hotels.
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Author: Terry Stibal
Date: 2005-02-09 19:02
"What right would you expect to get for paying the royalty fee? "
But, I'm not talking about recording already purchased music from another CD here. I'm talking about recording a performance of sheet music arrangements (covered under the copyright provisions) for which the "seat tax" is the normal route of recovery by the composer, only in this case the music in question would be performed into microphones into a recording system, the output of which is then sent to a recording medium for further sale.
The two circumstances:
LIVE PERFORMANCE:
My group performs Harlem Nocturne by Earl Hagen. If it is played in a "venue", it's covered under the "seat tax". No problem with that. Everybody goes away happy (except for the oxygen deprived alto sax player).
This is cool, and I know that (in virtually all locations in which we perform) things are done according to Hoyle.
RECORDED PERFORMANCE:
Now, my group performs the same composition into a recording setup and writes the resultant mix onto a CD-R (Music). We then sell same to all and sundry comers at our live engagements, pocketing the usual offered fifteen bux in the process, and distributing it across the group on a quarterly basis. (I throw an extra nickel to the sax player for his extra troubles...)
This circumstance is not as clear in my mind. I know that I'm paying an "extra" fee on the CD-R (Music), and it was my (imperfect) understanding when this was all first created that said fee was to deal with the copyright issues.
What I'm looking for is a more or less definitive answer to the question:
"Does the fee paid as part of the CD-R (Music) take care of my obligation to compensate the composer for that "use" of his composition?"
I know that I would put multiple tunes on such a disk (probably about 15, judging from what I've seen from others. But, just like the seat tax is a overarching revenue source from which all composers are compensated, this would function in the same fashion. Earl would get his cut, Neal his, and so forth, all coming out of the grand pool into which all are paying (directly or indirectly).
Note that since a fee is paid with every CD-R (Music) purchased, the number of copies sold would automatically increase the payment to ASCAP/BMI; in effect, it would work as a self regulating mechanism based upon the total number of "albums" sold. The labeling process would make it all a bit clunky (I've not seen any 'print to disk' CD-R (Music) disks for sale), but it would at least be "legal".
We've had dozens of requests for recordings following our live appearances, almost always by people with wallets in hand, but the royalty payment issue is the one thing that's been holding me back. If this extra payment through the CD-R (Music) purchase price is the equivalent, then I'd just do all such albums on CD-R (Music) with a clear conscience.
If not, then I'll continue with the same approach as we have currently, i.e., no albums no how no way. And, I know that thousands of musical groups currently burn and sell their own recordings without any payment through the "system", but that still doesn't make it right.
(And, I also know that the performers on the disk have the right to be compensated for their performance. What we would do is to split the "profits" of such an enterprise (and they are considerable enough; the cost per disk is about a dollar, packaging and labeling included) out to all members of the group, and performers would waive any future rights should they leave (this too I am comfortable with).)
By the way, I've tried internet searches on this topic in the past, and whatever key words I used did not turn up anything even close to an answer. I also called one of the manufacturers of same (CD-R (Music) CDs), but got ignored for my troubles.
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2005-02-09 19:19
Terry Stibal wrote:
to Hoyle.
>
> RECORDED PERFORMANCE:
>
> Now, my group performs the same composition into a recording
> setup and writes the resultant mix onto a CD-R (Music). We then
> sell same to all and sundry comers at our live engagements,
> pocketing the usual offered fifteen bux in the process, and
> distributing it across the group on a quarterly basis. (I throw
> an extra nickel to the sax player for his extra troubles...)
You need to clear a different set of copyrights, the recording rights, which is not covered by the tax on the CD.
The Harry Fox Agency is the clearinghouse for the recording rights.
There are 4 sets of copyrights, possibly held by different people/organizations, for every piece of recorded music:
The copyright on the printed music
The copyright for public performances of the music
The copyright on actual recording of the music
The copyright on the replaying in public of the recording
Which points out why the lawyers often get involved. It's not as straightforward as many people imagine.
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Author: Terry Stibal
Date: 2005-02-09 21:20
There you go. I thought that it wouldn't be simple, and it turns out that my gut feelings are correct. Going through that much trouble isn't worth the limited revenue stream, particularly when you consider the extra trouble of tracking individual musicians and the like.
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Author: msloss
Date: 2005-02-10 14:41
Terry -
FYI, you are under no obligation to use the consumer music CD-Rs for commercial music purposes. When I record clients and provide CD-Rs, I use a high quality commercial CD-R that is not surcharged as explained above. Frankly, you can use the CD-Rs you can buy in bulk at CompUSA for $20 per 100. Just note that commercial CD-Rs work in computers and commercial CD recorders but not the consumer decks you buy at Circuit City. Other than that, you get the same product.
And as MC pointed out, start with Harry Fox if you intend to resell performances of music you didn't write or arrange yourself. They have special arrangements for limited purpose limited run CDs like you describe. Good luck with it.
Mark.
(don't bother tipping the sax player, he can't count money anyway)
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Author: Terry Stibal
Date: 2005-02-10 15:13
Our sax players count well...gotta hit those rests right.
We use printable CD-Rs from Memorex for the excerpted demo disk; they work fine with the burner and the labels print up well. Won't sell them, or even circulate the entire version of a tune on one, though...
There have been some times when we were recording with one of the decks (the one that needs the CD-R (M) disks), and we needed additional disks, only to have a runner go to two or three locations before finding them. As was mentioned above, they're not always located in the obvious location.
One good thing about Guitar Center is that they always have them in stock. Spending five minutes in one of their stores to buy them is something I avoid, but my wife can stand the noise that long. I've been in foundries that were quieter than a Guitar Center on a Saturday morning...
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Author: Terry Stibal
Date: 2005-02-10 16:10
Did I say foundries? What I meant to say was that I've been in shooting galleries that were quieter than a Guitar Center on a quiet day.
(Seriously, thanks to Ken Shaw for noting the error in my profile; I believe that it's fixed now.)
leader of Houston's Sounds Of The South Dance Orchestra
info@sotsdo.com
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