 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2005-01-28 14:44
The recent crack got me thinking that perhaps the clarinet was very dry and that could have contributed to it.
So I figured I'd oil my clarinets over the weekend. Is it possible to OVER oil it? Or would the excess oil just not soak in and therefore just be able to be wiped off?
Also, is oiling before the crack is repaired forbidden, or is it allright to do so?
Thank you.
Alexi
US Army Japan Band
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2005-01-28 16:24
Alexi, I presume you are asking about oiling the bore, rather than keywork. This is a somewhat "beaten to death" subject in our archives, but I have a thot or two to add !!! I and some others prefer almond or apricot oils rather than " commercial" bore oils, however Doctor Omar's version , I'm sure is excellent. If your repair is to be by pinning/banding only without superglue [or other] sealing, I see no reason for not doing it right away. If gluing/sealing, I'd wait. Yes, "drying-out" by water and/or oils evaporation IMHO does contribute to cracking potential. I usually oil [my good] ww bores and outer surface [lightly] a couple of times a year, and carefully watch their storage area's relative humidity by hygrometers in their "rooms". Mine run now about 35% R H, down from 50% in the other seasons, due to the dehumidifying cold weather, just ask a weather person why this happens, if you dont already know. So, for me, its about time to supplement humidity via pill bottle or other "evaporator" techniques. Loose socket rings are a warning here ! Nuff [too much?] for now. Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2005-01-28 16:41
Yup. I had (and still have) those loose socket rings. I should have seen the signs. Too bad it's only my hindsight that's 20/20. Thanks for the info Don.
US Army Japan Band
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2005-01-28 18:18
Heavily oiling the Clarinet deadens the tone. (Gigliotti told me that - I have no experience of my own on the matter)
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Author: RodRubber
Date: 2005-01-28 20:04
David,
Gigliotti told me "never" to oil the bore of the 10gs he got me when i was his last student.
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2005-01-28 20:43
Yeah, Tony was against oiling the Clarinet. It could also be the area of the country asto the moisture in the air - dry climate maybe he would have used it from time to time.
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Author: L. Omar Henderson
Date: 2005-01-28 20:48
(Disclaimer - I sell a plant derived bore oil)
The discussions about whether to oil will go on for ever - however, it should be noted that the quality and aging of the Grenadilla wood used in modern instruments is not quite the same as of old. Why do I say this - I have had conversations with personnel at several of the major manufacturers of wood instruments and they complain that the quality of the wood used is not as good as 20 years ago, the wood is not aged as long before manufacturing as 20 years ago, some manufacturers use hot dry air to speed aging (although this is not to say that this is bad - just different) rather than the ambient air dry for long periods (5-10 years) used 20 years ago, etc. Oil impregnation is also shortened in today's manufacturing procedures. All of this is to say that the oiling needs of more modern instruments may be different than in days gone by.
(Note - these are my own opinions, but based on extensive experimental work)
You can over oil a wood clarinet. The oil absorbed by wood is not linear to the oil and water content of the wood but plateaus with a gradual still upward absorption. If the wood is dry and needs oil and moisture (plant derived oils will add, and buffer the water content of the wood) the wood will absorb oil until it reaches a proper balance to the amount of oil used to impregnate the wood at the factory. An additional amount of oil can be absorbed by the wood but this overfills the cellular structure of the wood and causes it to loose structural integrity by swelling. Loss of too much oil and moisture lessens structural integrity by making the cell walls shrink to a point that they collapse.
Without making actual measurements of oil and moisture content of the wood it is a reasonable approach to oil when the wood on the inside of the bore (usually noticed at the top joint where the barrel attaches) becomes dull and gray rather than shiny and black. A light application of oil is applied and left overnight - when there is visible oil on the surface of the wood after the one or several overnight treatments the addition of oil is stopped. Frequency of oiling depends on the particular piece of wood, the amount of playing, and environmental conditions such as heat and low or high humidity. Once a quarter year is sufficient for most instruments but YMMV.
L. Omar Henderson
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Author: BobD
Date: 2005-01-28 21:14
Omar's advice sounds as good as ever to me. Before I oil I put small pieces of aluminum foil under the pads that are closed. I'm under the impression that the oboe players have always oiled their bores....using a turkey feather but "in the old days" I don't recall the subject of clarinet oiling coming up in my "circle". When metal clarinets were the norm the only oiling that was done was for key action as far as I know. Wood clarinets crack for a number of reasons. I think there are people who know all the reasons. But does anyone know for sure why a particular crack occurs?
.....and by the way.....pinning per se doesn't close a crack....so I hear.
Bob Draznik
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2005-01-28 22:23
Pinning just attempts to stabilise a crack, so that its width does not keep changing. This stability also helps to stop the crack travelling further.
Some technicians attempt to close a crack before stabilising; some attempt to open it as far as possible. Some try to stabilise it in a typical-for-the-working -environment' state, i.e. when the stresses in the timber are at a minimum, relieved by the opening of the crack.
If a split is stabilised while it is in a NON-typical state, then presumably when the instrument is again in an environment conducive to splitting, there will be stresses in the localised neighbouring timber which are just as great as those which originally caused the split. In theory, the likelihood of a further split has been increased.
In practice, pinning may actually do less stabilising than we imagine. After all, the location where the pins cross the actual split is quite deep down the split. This would be somewhat ineffective in stabilising the timber near the surface, where the spit is widest, and where tone hole faces are - the area most in need of stabilising.
IMHO. Interesting topic because it is open to so much conjecture.
Some technicians believe that the pins should be at quite steep angles to eachother and the split. Personally, I believe that this would do LESS stabilising - rather too complicated to explain the detail in a forum, but perhaps suffice to present an exaggerated image to illustrate... If two timber boards were quite soft, and held together by nails that were at an angle ALMOST PARALLEL to the crack, then the boards would not be held securely.
Rather too much prattling on here - sorry! My brain does that sort of thing all the time.
Post Edited (2005-01-28 22:24)
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2005-01-28 23:00
Quote:
but perhaps suffice to present an exaggerated image to illustrate... If two timber boards were quite soft, and held together by nails that were at an angle ALMOST PARALLEL to the crack, then the boards would not be held securely. True, but they would be more liable to slip up and down (against one another) rather than away or towards one another. A perpendicular pin would (in this instance, possibly also for clarinet) not be as effective from preventing lateral movement as it would longitudinal.
Alexi
US Army Japan Band
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2005-01-29 02:01
That depends how tight the pins are in their holes (and likewise the tightness of the nails). Pins are normally shallow-threaded right thorugh the holes in the grenadilla. If this is successfully done, the pins would probably break before the pulled through their holes.
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Author: donald
Date: 2005-01-29 05:01
on "over-oiling"
my first pair of Buffet clarinets (S1 model) were ridiculously over-oiled by their previous owner. This person oiled them with Almond oil (which i understand is NOT reccomended anyone who knows what they're doing) and piled the stuff on with repeated oilings.
the result was a thick layer of black dirt on the inside of the bore. This was removed from the bore by a repair person who collected the bits of gunk in a cup to show me- quite disgusting.
don't oil with Almond oil
don't play while there is still oil (that may not have soaked in to the wood) visible on the bore- i suggest getting in the habbit of pulling a (dry of moisture and oil) cleaner through the instrument after you have allowed time for the oil to soak in.
donald
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Author: BobD
Date: 2005-01-29 17:53
I doubt that the black gunk resulted from the almond oil per se. Sounds like heresy to me.
Bob Draznik
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Author: donald
Date: 2005-01-30 18:10
Bob- the black gunk was players saliva mixed with almond oil mixed with fibres from the pull through and was suprisingly thick. It took about 15 years of monthly oiling to accumulate, and a significant factor was that the player played immediately after oiling.
if you search past postings you should find evidence that almond oil is not advised for a couple of reasons, one being that it doesn't soak in to the wood particuarly well (advice echoed by recorder/flute and oboe makers).
that being said, many people have used Almond oil without their clarinets falling to pieces, however there are better alternatives, and where "over-oiling" is concerned thicker oils like Almond oil are possibly more problematic.
donald
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2005-01-30 19:24
My guess is that something in the saliva quite quickly polymerised the almond oil to a gooey solid before any cleaning rag removed the excess - repeatedly.
<P>As I understand it, almond oil may well be ONE of the components of respected bore oils, but that there are other vital ingredients - perhaps one to lower the viscosity and carry it into the timber, and definitely a LONG TERM stabiliser to stop polymerisation, and rancidity. My understanding is that vitamin E, added by some marketers and in home recipes, works for too short a time.
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Author: L. Omar Henderson
Date: 2005-01-30 21:32
(Disclaimer - I sell a plant derived bore oil)
IMO - Almond oil is indeed good for wood, but as part of a complete formulation which contains other oils, stabilizers, emulsifiers and antioxidants strong enough to keep the oils from oxidizing, turning rancid, and polymerizing for an extended period of time. Almond oil by itself is especially prone to oxidation. As mentioned, Vitamin E is not a particularly long lasting or potent antioxidant for plant oils.
Partially polymerized plant oils including almond and particularly linseed will form a sticky mess which attracts dirt, lint, and dust from the air to form a foul mess. All oils to some extent will form a pore filling plug of dust and the oil. This is why I recommend cleaning the wood to remove this residue before applying more oil over some unknown formulation. Oil formulations that are completely absorbed do not leave this surface oil residue to accumulate dirt and grime and the problem of pore filling is much less. It is through these wood pores that the moisture balance of the wood is maintained and regulated.
L. Omar Henderson
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2005-01-30 22:49
Well said, [still to me] , Doc. I was just going to quibble a bit re: possible overuse of the word "polymerization", I'd sorta prefer "oxidative crosslinking" or "condensation", no matter what, the formation of crude crud. Do you know the chemical nature of almond/apricot oils, linseed is well known of course from its use in paints. A good friend gave me what amounts to a lifetime supply of both alm and apr which I {try} to keep "virgin" in a refrigerator. Thots, Omar ? Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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Author: L. Omar Henderson
Date: 2005-01-30 23:52
(Disclaimer- I sell a plant derived bore oil)
I am not as familiar with apricot oil but have done some extensive experimentation with almond oil. It will undergo autoxidation quite readily. The process is accelerated with heat and the presence of some trace elements and is pretty much impossible to stop without the presence of stabilizers and antioxidants. Stabilizers can be of several forms but can be free radical traps and cross linking inhibitors. It depends a lot on how the nut oils were processed. Many oils have natural antioxidant co-eluting compounds if the oils are not overly processed or heat extracted. The nature of these compounds is complex and to some extent not well understood except that they inhibit oxidation and trap some free radicals produced by oxygen attack. Several of these potent antioxidant chemicals have been isolated and characterized which are much more potent at preventing autoxidation and the processes which turn the oil rancid than Vitamin E (which is really only mildly effective in animal derived fatty acid systems).
Neither apricot or almond oil alone will penetrate Grenadilla very well in my experimentation but do offer some preservative qualities. There are some oils which naturally penetrate dense hardwoods readily but these alone do not offer significant wood preservation qualities. Mixing oils can produce a true mixture, not emulsion, with added emulsifying agents which yields (IMHO) complementary properties of penetration and preservation. Wood has been sucessfully preserved for centuries with various applications of different plant derived oils so there is no one answer to what is the "right" oil or oil mixtures. The ideal oil or oil mixture should be preservative and not turn rancid or polymerize under ambient temperature conditions for a period of years.
L. Omar Henderson
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Author: Avie
Date: 2005-02-01 19:45
Maybe its just a coincidence but I just recalled having just oiled the exterior and bore of my Buffet and it was around that time I detected a crack. The previous owner said to use very little oil but I may have over did it. Just a little food for thought. ![[frown]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smilie2.gif)
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Author: nickma
Date: 2005-02-01 21:42
I like almond oil, used every once in a blue moon on the outside of the instrument only, soaking for a couple of days. Given I'm not a scientist, I don't know, or care, about arguments to do with poymers and stuff. Almond is a lot nicer than linseed, which stinks IMO.
On the inside of the bore, I don't bother, at most, using a few drops on a pull through. According to Jack Brymer, a leather pull thru gives all the oil a bore ever needs.
I have oiled the outside of my 10G, and it looks lovely. Inside, nothing.
Nick
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2005-02-02 00:38
Nickma, you seem to have a belief system that works well for you. :-)
I prefer to put my trust in what science IS known on the topic.
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