 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Brenda
Date: 2005-01-28 16:02
When deciding on purchasing an old model of clarinet, even one in excellent condition, what determines the price? Clarinets don't appreciate in value as vintage cars do, but neither can you use the original purchase price as the determining factor. I'm looking at a friend's Buffet R13 A that's in excellent shape, plays very well, but is from the 60's.
What are some things to consider when determining a price?
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2005-01-28 16:23
When pricing of vintage instruments
Has now come into play,
I urge you to see comparable instruments
On the website known as "Ebay" . . . Alexi
US Army Japan Band
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Author: Marnix van den Berg
Date: 2005-01-28 16:25
I suppose it all depends on whether the instrument truly is 'the best A they ever played'. If you played it yourself and found it to be that good, then I suppose the high price is justified.
To me price is just a secondary consideration when purchasing an instrument.
Still with an instrument this old and in this price range and without having the chance to playtest it, I would go to a shop (or many shops) and try out some instruments before buying any.
I think he's just trying to hype up the price. Even if it IS a good instrument, there are many 'good' instruments to be found in shops that you can try out beforehand. And if all his professional friends said it was the best A they ever played, why didn't they buy it then?
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Author: mystery science dieter
Date: 2005-01-28 16:30
Whatever the richest sucker is willing to pay, that is what this clarinet is worth.
All of these 'professionals' quoted by the seller tried it, measured it, declared it the greatest clarinet since whatever. Isn't it interesting that NOT ONE OF THEM PULLED OUT HIS CHECKBOOK? If I was evaluating someone's instrument that was for sale and it was the best I had ever played, I would offer them the money right there, wouldn't you? The seller is a clarinet player and he would sell such a clarinet?
Also, some guy kept it in the back room because it was so great? And the seller learned this how? Did the guy leave a note in the case? How is it determined why this clarinet wound up where it supposedly wound up?
And all the stuff about old Buffets? Well, I know a lot of professionals, and most of those that play Buffet play new ones.
The only thing that determines a price is what you are willing to part with to own it. If you listen to anyone else's opinion, and that person isn't trying to buy the clarinet himself, you are a sucker.
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Author: Brenda
Date: 2005-01-28 16:56
Actually the Buffet A I'm trying out isn't the same one you're talking about - my friend isn't asking near what this guy is. I have it at home for two weeks for play testing.
MysteryScience is probably right, it's what I'm willing to part with in order to own it. BUT, that having been said, two years from now I'd like to feel that I paid a fair price and neither overpaid nor was unfair to the seller. E-bay states the price someone paid but the instrument probably needs repairs to bring it up to snuff.
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2005-01-28 17:06
MC/GBK, What happened to my lengthy reply, I did click POST, went blank, need to repeat ? Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2005-01-28 17:11
Don (and others),
I've gotten into the habit of highlighting everything I've typed and pressing CTRL, holding it, and pressing C to "copy" all my text. In the event that it doesn't post, I simply reply again, and press CTRL, holding it, and press V. This 'pastes' all the text you copied before.
Alexi
US Army Japan Band
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2005-01-28 17:38
TKs , Alexi, Should have "preserved" a copy, it was about a 1/2 hr's work [takes a bit for me to make good sense] will re--do, later. Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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Author: Fred
Date: 2005-01-28 17:54
As a general rule (with room for exceptions), I'd think a used clarinet with a premium overhaul should cost no more than 60-75% of the commonly available new price. Without fresh overhaul, I'd do a sliding scale depending on condition, figuring that a premium overhaul can be had for about $300 including shipping. Cracks and bad cases lower the value as well.
That being said, there are clarinets that are simply not worth 60-75%, and some that are worth more.
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Author: BobD
Date: 2005-01-28 21:31
I'm guessing a 60s A Buffet could bring about $1200.....on eBay. That's not to say it's worth that, however. Things to consider......how much you desire to own it. ....period.
Bob Draznik
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Author: John O'Janpa
Date: 2005-01-28 22:02
If it was Robert Marcellus's, which was picked up by Benny Goodman at Robert's estate sale, then it would probably be worth more than mine.
Not that mine might not play just as well.
If it plays well for you, it's worth what you're willing to pay for it.
If you think you might resell it, ebay's a good place to find comps, factoring in $$ for bringing them into condition.
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Author: Brenda Siewert
Date: 2005-01-28 22:08
If you do a search on eBay for clarinets of similar age and condition, you'll have a good general idea what you might be able to get for one--or pay for one. You need to do a search for auctions that have closed to get a good idea of what they actually brought.
Going to your local music store probably won't give you an idea of what a good used one would be worth--they tend to jack the price up pretty high on used instruments.
You might also do a search of instruments listed on classifieds (such as this board) and Yahoo, etc. to see what price private owners are advertising.
I usually do a thorough search like this when I have an instrument that I don't have a good idea about pricing before I list it for sale.
If there are unusual circumstances (such as mentioned by John), then all bets are off.
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Author: Brenda
Date: 2005-01-29 00:14
Don Berger, I'd still like to read what you have to say.
Your suggestions have been useful, undoubtedly for others as well as myself. Especially using the % formula that Fred proposed and then using a sliding scale depending on wear and tear gives me a meaningful starting point.
The questions I've asked are: What condition is this clarinet in? Has it been overhauled recently and was it an expert job? Are there any cracks? Do the serial numbers match? Using the serial number, what's it's age? What shape is the case in? And lastly, based on the above, is the asking price reasonable for the instrument I have in my hands?
I've had a couple pros eyeball this clarinet and have done other research, and I think I've now reached an informed conclusion based on their specific opinions and your suggestions.
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Author: hartt
Date: 2005-01-29 03:59
Brenda
Does this R13A you're looking at come with a copy of the Ricordi Edition ? ![[grin]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smilie5.gif) . If not, pass on it and let me buy it. ![[rotate]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smiley25.gif)
As you may know, pricing is relative; if it's a good clarinet and you want it bad enough........ (you don't have to need it, just want it )
I've 3 A's . My 1959 Buffet belonged to my teacher Russianoff and I bought it from him in 1965 when I was HS sr. How good is it? I've turned down what new ones list for.
My 1972 Buffet was owned for a short time by Earl Handlon of the Minneapolis SO.
My 1987 Yamaha was an unplayed back up for my late friend, John Denman.
There are way numerous criterias for judging an A or any clarinet for that matter.
If you are fortunate enough to own Volume 1 and 2 of Leon Russianoff's Clarinet Method books, there is a section specifically devoted to intonation. Therein, he outlines the process of testing/trying out and buying a clarinet.....note by note, interval by interval, octaves and 12ths.
After one gets through the 'pulling out' here and there, 'pushing in' here and there, 'turning' joints (bbl /bell / mp ), changing bbls, use of alternate and/or special fingerings for specific notes, stuffiness, resistance and more...........then, he gets into tone hole / undercutting issues. This of course assumes that all keys function properly and pads seat perfectly.
So, my dear, grab your tuner and Do Re Me at 440.
Now, if you really, really want to get into finite details / mechanics of tuning, there is an article on Intonation written by or wonderful BB friend, Clark Fobes. I've a copy and another buried somewhere in this lappy, but I believe it's about 14 pages in length.
regards
dennis
ps....no, I don't collect clarinets
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2005-01-29 14:17
TKS, Brenda, I'll try to recall/reproduce what I had {FWIW}. The first thot was that, yes, EBAY gives you some info, but re: value/cost, if the bidding is scant and the seller is in some $ distress [or is "uninformed"], it may be too low, also if "
overly proud/agressive" it may be ?much too high. Its easier re: the latter! The questions you ask and the comments by others are V G, and prob cover what else I had to say. Playing condition and personal "tweaking" need some assessment, and what cost-estimation you [with help?] can do. As to age, a good inst with reasonable care can be a long-term, value-retaining investment, I have several. As to matching ser #'s, sometimes a joint cracks beyond reasonable repair and is replaced . as with my VG Selmer [30 series] Bass cl, which has a Slightly higher #'d L J than UJ [W vs V] and does NOT have the intonation problems reported for the earlier ones. I know little of the R13's, but have read here of a ?preferred? ser # range by experts. Ah yes, a bit of recall, " a case in point re Value/rarity"! An MD good friend brought me his Super [Balanced Action?] Selmer Alto Sax [late 1940's -50's] for a check over before offering it for sale for about $2000. Having a good Mark 6 myself, I informed him that that was much too low and consulted an expert friend for a bit of repair and sales advice. The last I heard of it, It was on sale via Wichita Band negotiating with a Japanese collector/player? for at least $5500 [more than my own estimate ! Needless to say my MD was pleased, hoping his "rare bird" would find an appreciative home. I enjoyed the experience very much. Believe "that's all , Folks. Hope this posts. Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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Author: Marnix van den Berg
Date: 2005-01-30 17:33
Well, the bidding for the R13 A just ended without reaching the reserve. And man, it was already up to $3000. I guess the seller just got greedy
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Author: msloss
Date: 2005-01-30 18:10
Well - at $3K you could fly to Paris and pick a brand new R13 at the factory. At $4K you could make a week of it. Better yet, have a pro pick a good one for you, and spend the rest on lessons. End up with a much better result in the end.
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Author: mystery science dieter
Date: 2005-01-31 13:38
What a crock. This guy was obviously not interested in actually selling the horn. Probably just trying to see how much he could get for it. Likely he will try to get around the Ebay fees by selling it to one of the high bidders privately.
$3,000 for a nearly 40 year old instrument? Come on.
And the economy is supposed to be bad.
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