 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Douglas
Date: 2005-01-24 20:11
I have noticed that teflon is being advertised as a material for clarinet repair work and am not sure how this would be used. I am assuming that they are talking about sheet teflon, so I am asking the repair experts on the board just how they would use teflon for repair. I am thinking that there might be a use for it instead of key swedging, but that may be wrong and there probably are other uses as well. Thanks.
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2005-01-24 21:08
Douglas,
You're correct on both counts. PTFE (trade name "Teflon") in sheet form is very handy as a shim between the end of a key rod and its post (an alternative to swedging as you said), and also as a partial substitute for cork between keys or linkages that slide relative to each other. The downside to PTFE is that it 'cold flows', that is, it compresses continuously under even small loads and, eventually, will extrude out of a joint or space between loaded metal pieces. This takes a long time to happen with most clarinet applications, however.
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Author: ron b
Date: 2005-01-24 22:34
I don't know of any satisfactory substitute for swedging keys, at least I've not found it. As David points out, sticky-back sheet Teflon seems better suited to sliding [sax] linkages than clarinet mechanisms. It might be okay for the alternate C/F and maybe the crow's foot and bridge - but, really, I find no advantage over cork, even for those.
- r![[cool]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/cool.gif) n b -
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2005-01-24 22:39
Ron makes a good point: The only way to remove one of the major sources of clarinet noise (rods banging internally against their pivot screws) is to swedge the key (compress it slightly at the end, which also elongates it a bit). A shim only removes clearance between the end of the rod and the post, it really doesn't eliminate rocking of the rod on the screws. But still, it's useful stuff on clarinets as well as saxes.
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Author: Pete
Date: 2005-01-24 23:31
I tried using teflon a few years back on a number of keys, particularly between the thumb ring and the F# ring. It made the keys feel really smooth, however, it was noisy compared to cork.
I do use teflon washers on occasion for keys that cannot be properly swedged. On Bundy clarinets and the like there is often no way to swedge some keys. A teflon washer can fill in the gap. It is not ideal, but on student instruments, often nothing is. This would not be a consideration on step up or pro models.
A better way to remove all key flop on these types of keys is to use a filler inside the key that takes up the gap and forms to the pivot screw. A perfectly fitted key can be had with this system on any woodwind key.
Another problem I had was that I could not always depend on the teflon staying glued to the key. The sheet teflon that is sold for key work is etched on one side to help glue stick, but even with high grade contact cements, it did not seem reliable. Do not even bother with sheets that are not etched. Remember the properties of teflon.
The whole idea of swedging and key noise brings up another point. A lot of players and repairman think that cork pads are noisy. I have really come to believe that they are not neccessarily that noisy themselves, but they help amplify noise that is already there. So it becomes even more important to have proper fitting keys on clarinets with cork pads. Having teflon on the bridge or between the G# and A keys with cork pads would make it sound like you have your own rhythm section.
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Author: jbutler ★2017
Date: 2005-01-25 00:57
I use teflon tubing for the LH C#/F# and B/E keys. The newer Buffets use a nylon insert in these keys now, but the older clarinets still have the pip that goes into a receiver on the crossover arms of these keys. The tubing slides over the pips instead of using bladder or other material.
As stated above, teflon sheet can be used for keys, but I also find it inferior because of noise and it's tendancy to not adhere well. Teflon or nylon "bushings" may be used to take up end play in keys, but I also agree that swedging is much better. There are only a few cases where swedging can not be done with pliers, but there are other ways to accomplish the task.
jbulter
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Author: ron b
Date: 2005-01-25 04:43
I was shown by a seasoned tech some years ago that it's possible to swedge any key. I mean All of them, including Bundys. Since then I've avoided fillers altogether because, it seems to me, it's an emergency measure at best. Take an analytal approach and the right tool and you'll never use a "filler" again. Guaranteed...
- ron b -
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Author: LeWhite
Date: 2005-01-25 06:58
Don't the Brannens exclusively use teflon?
__________________
Don't hate me because I play Leblanc! ![[down]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smiley23.gif) Buffet
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2005-01-25 07:21
In general I find PTFE too noisy for linkages. For certain difficult linkages where friction is a problem, especially G# lever-to-key link on saxes, and sometimes on low key on bass clarinets, but most often I laminate it with 0.4 mm composite cork to reduce noise.
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Author: donald
Date: 2005-01-25 09:35
yes, as a player i have found teflon less than ideal (noisy)
another drawback is that it can't be sanded down for small adjustments of key height etc
the same can be said for felt or other synthetics being used as the buffer under the lower ring assembly (one supposes that pad height could be adjusted by bending the key, but this is surely less ideal than putting on an oversized cork and sanding it down?)
donald
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Author: BobD
Date: 2005-01-25 12:57
"they help amplify noise that is already there"......
I find it hard to b believe that cork would amplify noise since one of its historical uses is for sound deadening. Could I be wrong?
Bob Draznik
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Author: Ray
Date: 2005-01-25 13:16
jbutler,
Would you mind revealing the size of the teflon tubing you use and where you get it?
I am not a repair technician, but I do like to take care of my several clarinets whenever I can.
Thanks,
Ray
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Author: jmsa
Date: 2005-01-25 13:42
While we are talking about swedging, I just purchased a swedging tool with three collets from Feree Tools. Does anyone have any suggestions or secrets to the swedging process.
jmsa
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Author: ron b
Date: 2005-01-25 18:46
I don't know any secrets, jmsa, but often wish I did 
I've found that a good, smooth-jawed bench vice is an invaluable asset for holding the Ferree's collet tool. You needn't clamp it too tightly, just enough to keep it from wandering about. You can also make finer adjustments when it's held that way and both hands are free. Use plenty of lubricant (cork grease works pretty well) and swedge in small increments, just 'til the "play" is gone. Whatever you do, don't forget to keep the matching screw in the hinges when swedging them.
I know a chap who modified his collet tool with a "T" handle and that makes it roughly ten times easier to adjust its squeeze.
- r b -
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Author: jbutler ★2017
Date: 2005-01-26 00:21
I agree with Ron B....use the tool in a small bench vise. It's much easier to use that way. Also, as suggested, make sure you keep it lubricated. I use Abu Garcia Reel Lube with teflon.
Ray,
Okay, I'll let this "secret" known, BUT everyone who uses it needs to contribute and extra $5 to Mark and his donation drive:
Small Parts Inc.
Miami Lakes, FL
305-557-8222
STT-14 teflon tubing (14 ga) for LH side key pips. Sometimes the receiver needs to be enlarged in the B/E crossover with a 43 or 42 ga drill bit.
jbulter
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2005-01-26 03:13
I prefer to hole the Ferrees collet tool in my hand during use, to get a better feel of alignment, and also to turn the tool rather than the key.
When tightening the tool, I get sufficient torque on the base of the tool by having enlarged its diameter.
I took some ABS rod of sufficient diameter (I chose 1 1/4"), and drilled a hole through a few inches of rod. The hole was appropriate diameter such that it could be tightly forced over hexagonal body of the tool.
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Author: Ray
Date: 2005-01-26 14:04
Thanks for the tip about the teflon tubing, John. You are very generous, as are the other repair experts on this board. You are one of the big reasons I read it every day.
I will be sure to send an extra $5 to Mark. Reading this board has improved my clarinet playing quite a bit. Not as much as if I had spent the time practicing, but still....
Best regards,
Ray
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2005-01-26 14:34
Not Teflon, but another method of quieting key noise. Many years ago, a bassoonist friend took his Heckel to Hans Moenning, who drilled short holes in the body underneath the keys and inserted small cylindrical pieces of cork, which eliminated the noise of the key hitting the body.
I'm not sure this would be useful on clarinet, where there's room to glue cork strips to the bottom of keys, and the strips are easier to replace than cork glued into the body.
I would think that nylon pins on the ends of the left little finger low E and F# keys would still be relatively noisy. Is it usual or necessary to wrap nylon pins with goldbeater's skin?
Has anyone used Teflon for tenon corks? Or do you need more flexibility?
Ken Shaw
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Author: jbutler ★2017
Date: 2005-01-26 23:05
Ken,
No, it isn't necessary to use goldbeaters skin with the nylon pins. I think the friction of putting the clarinet together would not allow the use of teflon. One brand of bass clarinet uses an "O" ring instead of cork.
jbutler
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2005-01-27 09:06
I have seen the skin used to good effect in conjunction with pins, where the pins were too loose a fit in linkage holes.
I have little against them unless they break too easily during handling of the instrument, I have nothing against the nylon pins, nor the PTFE tubes, providing they cannot fall out.
What I have used over metal pins when the hole is large enough, is 'spinnaker cloth', the super-tough, 0.05 mm thick, flexible, very finely woven fabric used for making spinnaker sails for the likes of Americas Cup yacht racing. (I just happen to live where some of the world's top sail makers work.)
This fabric is practically indestructible; it does not get holes worn through it as does goldbeaters skin, which in turn is far better than every polymer FILM that I have seen other technicians use. Its silencing action is excellent, I suppose partly because of its slight springiness.
FWIW, when I use goldbeaters, I cut it from a sheet made from two thicknesses, laminated together with contact adhesive, which itself seems to add to the toughness.
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2005-01-27 09:11
Ken wrote: "Not Teflon, but another method of quieting key noise. Many years ago, a bassoonist friend took his Heckel to Hans Moenning, who drilled short holes in the body underneath the keys and inserted small cylindrical pieces of cork, which eliminated the noise of the key hitting the body...."
I think the cork is attached to the body in cases where the key design is such that there is too small an area on the key to reliable glue 'cork' to. This means that this very small area of metal very readily crushes natural cork glued to the body. On the other hand, when a larger surface area of contact is involved, usually when the cork is attached to the key, there is more of a 'slapping' action which makes more noise.
The method you describe is currently used on quite a few models of soprano clarinet.
I now find certain other materials such as Kraus' black synthetic 'cork' (in three densities) and Kraus' synthetic felt, far more successful in these applications for both deadening noise and remaining stable.
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2005-01-27 14:44
Gordon -
Many thanks. I'll look for the Kraus synthetics, which I assume are available from Ferree's, and spinnaker cloth, which I assume isn't. The problem may be with quantity. Probably a square foot of the stuff will last me the rest of my life. I don't need a whole spinnaker's worth.
Ken Shaw
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Author: GBK
Date: 2005-01-27 15:22
Ken...If you ever find some spinnaker cloth, put me down for a few inches ![[wink]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smilie3.gif) ...GBK
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Author: BobD
Date: 2005-01-27 15:31
I have machined brass wire to replace failed nylon "pips".....but then I'm a masochist.
Bob Draznik
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2005-01-28 01:50
As far as I am aware, Ken, Ferrees do not (yet) sell those great products that Kraus now has. In fact, I find Ferrees sometimes does some arguably misleading promotion of some rather disappointing products. Other Ferree products are excellent, of course.
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2005-01-28 13:54
Gordon -
So where can I order small amounts of Kraus products?
Ken Shaw
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