 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: SolidRockMan
Date: 2005-01-23 23:19
I play clarinet and alto sax in a church group. Our 'brass' section comprises a trombone, trumpet, tenor sax and me. I also fill in for the bass guitarist if he can't make it and sometimes play acoustic/electric guitar and sing.
I'm confused about the keys I'm using for the alto. If a song is in say concert A major, then if I have a clarinet part I'm playing in B major. This is clear because Bb is two semitones away from C.
However if playing alto for the same song, I would play in G major to be in tune...i.e., always a full tone below the concert key. How can this be correct when Eb is three semitones away from C??
Apologies if this is a silly question, but I seem to be missing something here....
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Author: fuglen
Date: 2005-01-23 23:31
You have to pull out your mouthpiece and loosen up your embouchure. If a song is in concert A major you will play F# major if your instrument is Eb Alto sax. Think of it this way: When you play a C on your Alto its Eb on the piano. Thats why your Alto is in Eb.
www.peterfuglsang.com
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Author: SimpsonSaxGal
Date: 2005-01-23 23:33
If you were playing a song in A major on alto sax, the key signature would be the same as F# or Gb Major. It's always 3 half steps below the concert key, not a full tone.
Kimberly Karwath
Bb, Bass, and Contrabass
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Author: Anna
Date: 2005-01-23 23:37
You've said that the Eb is three semitones away from C, however G is only TWO semitones away from A not three. You should be playing in F#/Gb not G.
Anna
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Author: Tom A
Date: 2005-01-23 23:43
Welcome, SolidRockMan! It's not clear whether you WORKED OUT that G major is the right key in this example, or whether you've played it and it SOUNDS CORRECT. Can you explain how you arrived at G Major?
Anyway, in your A Major example, you should play in F sharp Major on the alto, 3 semitones (a minor 3rd) below what's written.
There are a couple of ways to get the right transposition:
1) Working out the key first. On alto, go down 3 semitones to the new key. This tells you your key sig (assuming you know your keys);
2) Working out the key signature first. If the original is in a sharp key, ADD 3 sharps to get your key signature. If the original is a flat key, SUBTRACT 3 flats to get you key signature. If the original has fewer than 3 flats, then subtract the flats you have and add the remaining number as sharps.
Either way, you read the notes 2 steps (a 3rd) below what's written. This generally means line notes should be read as though on the next line down, space notes on the next space down. If you want to play the melody at written pitch, then you should also go up an octave.
As you can see, transposing for alto is hazardous in "popular" church music because guitars favour sharp keys to begin with.
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Author: SolidRockMan
Date: 2005-01-24 13:10
Thanks to all for the input. I understand how the keys work and as you say William, I would expect to find the correct key for an Eb instrument three semitones down from concert pitch.
However all the alto parts I have are written two semitones below and are perfectly in tune with the whole band. If the keyboard is playing in D I play in C, if the keyboard is in C I'm in Bb, etc., etc. For example I was working out a piece with the tenor player last Sunday and when I fingered C on the alto and he fingered E, we were in tune....a gap of four semitones when in theory there should be five!
In answer to your question William I didn't figure this out for myself. What happened initially was that I borrowed the group leader's alto and started playing what she had been playing....then I bought my own and carried on.
If it's the case (as fuglen says above) that both she and I are playing the alto a semitone too high due to mouthpiece positioning and embouchure pressure, how can we sound in tune with all the other instruments...?
Could it be that there is something wrong with the saxes themselves?
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Author: BobD
Date: 2005-01-24 13:53
I've played in groups where we two clarinets were the only ones playing in tune....the rest of the group being sharp.
Bob Draznik
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Author: mikeW
Date: 2005-01-24 16:59
One thing to do is check your pitch with an electronic tuner. As someone mentioned, you might be playing with the mouthpiece pushed too far onto the neck and a too tight embouchure. Another possibility is the saxophone.
How old is it? In the early part of the last century, a number of companies made both high-pitch and low-pitch instruments. The low-pitch instrumnets were built for tuning about A=436 and the high-pitch instruments were buillt for something like A=452. The problem is that HP instrumnets are set almost halfway between A=440 and B (466). Trying to tune the sax's F# to A=440 (or to B=466) will usually result in horrible relative intonation along the scale.
Tuning can be tricky, especially if there's no piano. Does the band use any sort of pitch reference for tuning, or do they just sort of agree on a pitch as things go along?
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Author: allencole
Date: 2005-01-25 02:42
I'm not so sure that he's sharp. If he's playing in his G, and is supposed to be in F#--and it's actually working as he says he is--it seems like he would have to be playing very flat. Perhaps the cork is too thick on the neck or the rhythm section is tuning too sharp.
I've seen pianos get awfully sharp in a cold room, and that cold could serve to additionally flatten his horn.
Allen Cole
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Author: Robert Moody
Date: 2005-01-25 03:45
If you are playing a modern ALTO Saxophone, and the instrument is in correct working order, you WILL sound a MAJOR sixth below the same written pitch on the piano. That is just the way it works. That is physics.
If the piano's key is C Major, the Eb Alto Saxophone will be in A Major for general transposition purposes.
There is no discussion about the relationship of the keys and pitches unless you are talking esoteric 20th\21st Century compositions.
Now, if you are positive you are playing an Eb Alto and not a Bb Soprano or Bb Tenor or other oddity, then there is something wrong with your instrument if it does NOT fit into the above key and pitch relationships.
You might want to explore possible reasons your instrument is not behaving like 99% of all other Eb Alto Saxophones. ![[wink]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smilie3.gif)
Take care and good luck,
Robert Moody
http://www.musix4me.com
Free Clarinet Lessons and Digital Library!
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Author: SimpsonSaxGal
Date: 2005-01-25 03:56
Perhaps you could try posting on a saxophone forum, also. I frequently visit The Saxophone Corner, off of www.selmer.com.
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Author: William
Date: 2005-01-25 14:35
Another (rare) possibility is that you may be using a tenor sax mouthpiece rather than an alto. I have some tenor mpcs that fit onto my alto sax mpc securely enough to function and produce a reasonalbe sound. However, that sound would be abnormally flat due to the longer tenor mpc design causing your alto to play about a half step flatter than normal and resulting in you having to play a G to sound (piano) A, rather than a Gb. To find out, take your present mpc to a music store and compare its length to a known alto sax model. The true alto mouthpiece will be shorter than that of a tenor. If yours is longer--and indeed a tenor--buy a new alto mouthpiece and then the transpositions described above will work just fine. Play C on your alto, it should sound Eb on your piano.
To transpose C music to the alto sax, play the written notes a minor third down--or a major sixth up. Ex: to play a concert Bb, play a G on your alto; to play a concert B, play G# on your alto; etc, etc, etc (King, from "King and I")
To read bass clef music on your alto sax (or Eb bari), just read the written note as if it were really in treble clef. Example: bass clef Eb3--play as a treble C5......bass clef E, play as a treble C#. It's simple, and it works.
Post Edited (2005-01-25 18:52)
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2005-01-25 15:36
It may be that with all of our descriptions of key relations, we are beating the subject to death [and confusion], so I'll add my "?help". Like several have said or hinted at, I view the Bb clarinet key signature as being 2#'s "above" piano-concert pitch, and the Eb alto [and bari] as being one more # above cl, that is, 3 # above P-C pitch, and let what the resulting [music] keys fall where they may. Also I can get "oriented" by considering the notes to which we tune , in bands, the piano's Bb is the Bb inst's C and the Eb inst's G ; in orchestras, the oboe's A is the Bb inst's B, and the Eb inst's F#. Hope this helps more than hinders !! Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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Author: SolidRockMan
Date: 2005-01-25 20:17
Robert Moody said:-
'If you are playing a modern ALTO Saxophone, and the instrument is in correct working order, you WILL sound a MAJOR sixth below the same written pitch on the piano. That is just the way it works. That is physics.'
Correct....but ONLY if the alto is also correctly tuned. I am playing just such an instrument and it plays differently despite the physics. (By the way Robert I am very well aware of the differences between alto, tenor and soprano saxes.)
Many thanks for all the input, I have now resolved the problem - allencole was correct, the sax is playing a full semitone flat. Today I raised the pitch by pushing the mouthpice way in and tuning against a keyboard until it matched what everyone said above.
As I mentioned previously I started on the alto by borrowing the previous player's instrument and following what she was doing. When I later bought my own I just tuned it to match. Although it didn't make sense that I was playing only a tone below concert pitch, that was how all the parts were written so I just went with it.
I am now faced with the dilemna of not only having to learn to play in some new and awkward keys (C# and B will be very common), but transposing all the existing music aswell!!!
Maybe I'll just continue flat...after all what's a semitone between friends ...:)
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