 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2005-01-17 20:31
Just curious. (hehe . . . my brain's been exploding as of late with questions . . . apologies to all)
Any time people think jazz, people think an open mouthpiece. The Vandoren 5JB, the pomarico 'jazz', etc. And anyone who plays both styles usually has a 'jazz' mouthpiece and a 'classical' mouthpiece (the latter of which is usually more closed).
Isn't one of the side effects of an open mouthpiece more of a tendency to bend a little out of tune? I can somewhat understand this being wanted when needing to scoop a note or put a little vibrato, but when you think about it, there are a lot of clarinetists out there who can bend and put vibrato without such an open mouthpiece (my thoughts go back to a post by Ken Shaw describing Charles Neidich bending a high C one octave down with just his embouchure - obviously an extreme case, but it CAN be done). And didn't Benny G use a closed mouthpiece lots of times?
Just curious. It seems to me that Eddie Daniels has it about right. Same mouthpiece for both, and does very nicely in both. Any other examples also with this? (taps foot impatiently waiting for Paquito D'Rivera to put out a classical album . . .)
Alexi
US Army Japan Band
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Author: fuglen
Date: 2005-01-17 21:08
hello Alexi
You have allready done a lot of great observations yourself. My experience is to avoid buying anything (instruments/mouthpieces) which has the word jazz on it. The idea is to have a great sound regardless what kind of music you play. Jazz is first and foremost about ideas and the feel of the music. Add to that a great tone in terms of projection and a lot of practice, then you cant go wrong.
P.S: Paquito D´Rivera has made an album called "Chamber Music From The South" with piano and cello. It must be at least 4 years old. Maybe thats what you are waiting for?
www.peterfuglsang.com
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Author: hans
Date: 2005-01-17 21:10
Attachment: ShawQuote.jpg (82k)
Maybe it works for some people. Artie Shaw had great control with a more closed mouthpiece (see quotation from his method book attached) and recommended that.
Hans
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Author: frank
Date: 2005-01-17 21:38
It's easier to get more volume on an open mouthpiece. The sacrafice, of course is control. Eddie Daniels plays on a very close/long mouthpiece. I've actually tried his personal mouthpiece which is the prototype of the new ED Woodwind Zinner blank mouthpieces. It's about 1.02 and felt very comfortable. Like usual, the six prototypes he had with him were markedly better than the commercially produced models. I offered him instant cash for one and he refused. He doesn't play with a lot of volume, even though he could if he chose to do so. I remember sitting in a masterclass with Eddie once and he could bend the pitch all over the place with his close setup. He played the opening of Rhapsody in Blue on justgf the mouthpiece alone! It was very cool. He did this to demonstrate flexibility of embouchure and oral cavity structure. It worked! 
Neidich plays on a fairly open mouthpiece I believe.
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Author: BobD
Date: 2005-01-17 22:13
I have always figured that the jazz scene allows for more tonal variation than symphonic....and that the open mp accomplishes that more easily than a closed one.
Bob Draznik
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Author: Dano
Date: 2005-01-17 22:17
I use a 5JB mostly because of volume. It does take a little more embouchure action to stay on top of intonation, but I find that I can "blow" harder and be heard easier. I also like the "reedy" almost fuzzy sound I can get if I want to. I have an Eddie Daniels mouthpiece but I can't really say it can be used for jazz. Maybe solos where no one else is playing and with a good sound engineer. I find it too closed and really can't project as well as I can on the 5JB or even my Mitchell Lurie Premium. I think the word "Jazz" on a mouthpiece is there to let people know it probably is open and free blowing compared to others in their line. I have a friend that plays jazz on a B-45 and I can barely blow through a B-45! I think the ultimate control of most mouthpieces comes from the musician, as frank stated how Eddie D. can play Rhapsody in Blue on just the mouthpiece. He can probably do that on most mouthpieces, not just his personal custom job.
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Author: ron b
Date: 2005-01-17 23:02
The stress on open mouthpieces, I presume the emphasis comes from mouthpiece marketers, is in my opinion the same fallacy that "jazz" must be loud. On both counts, (ahem), who says so.... ???
- r![[cool]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/cool.gif) n b -
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Author: Neil
Date: 2005-01-17 23:17
My own somewhat less than rigorous observation: last year in community band we played a medley of Glenn Miller's music which began with the opening of "In the Mood;" I just couldn't get the opening down using my Pomarico Ruby (medium) so I switched to my O'Brien #5(open) and it went a whole lot smoother.
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Author: Dano
Date: 2005-01-17 23:51
ron b,...Good point. I agree that jazz does not have to be loud, and some of my favorite jazz isn't, but I think the clarinet can't be heard over a tenor sax or trumpet and that a set up that allows you to be "louder" or as loud as them is beneficial. Also when you play a gig, there are "loud" jazz pieces and there are the mellower softer ones and being prepared for both is optimum. But I agree that too much emphasis is put on "loud" when we speak of jazz clarinet and mouthpieces for jazz.
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2005-01-18 04:40
Jazz is more about how you play something, and not what you play. You can play any music with any mouthpiece imo.
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2005-01-18 14:25
That's along the lines that I was thinking, clarnibass. But it just seems to me that anytime you see the word 'jazz' tacked into a mouthpiece's description, it's an open mouthpiece.
I'm starting to think that somewhere along the line, some famous or well-known jazz musicians started using open mouthpieces, and now the stereotype has stuck.
Alexi
US Army Japan Band
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Author: Brenda Siewert
Date: 2005-01-18 14:29
The open mouthpiece just makes the bends and "flavor" of tone a bit easier to obtain for those of us who aren't in Artie Shaw's class. Most of us are a bit like the elephant who paints with his trunk.
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2005-01-18 14:43
Well said, Brenda, now that elephants are "fair game", my abilities in, at least, some musical descriptions are in the class of the "three blind men dsscribing an elephant", that is, barely touching the "surface" . Yes, it seems to be better jazz coming from an open-faced mp. Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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Author: jmsa
Date: 2005-01-18 14:59
Which type of mouthpiece requires more air, open or closed and can someone please explain.
jmsa
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Author: Erdinet
Date: 2005-01-19 02:57
Wouldn't it also have to do with many of the players being doublers that play more saxophone than clarinet, using more are and therefore overblowing more, necessitating the need for a more open mouthpiece?
Being mainly a sax player, I was using a Vandoren 5JB for a while. Then I decided to take some time to really shed on the Bb Clarinet. Once I put the alto sax down and played more clarinet, the 5JB became wwwaaaaayyyyy to open for me. (Using a B45 now. Much better, but still not it, I think. Familiar to any one here?)
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Author: super20dan
Date: 2005-01-19 12:44
i agree the 5jb is waaaaay toooo open and takes chops of iron to play! i prefer a runyon jazz mpc with a med.tip
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Author: sinkdraiN
Date: 2005-01-19 13:06
An open mouthpiece allows more flexibility while a closed mouthpiece offers more stability. Jazz players want the flexibility.
On saxophone I play small facing mouthpieces for classical open for jazz. I'm not real big on open mouthpieces for clarinet. I play a medium facing clarinet mp for both jazz and classical. I think most of the really open mouthpieces are for sax players looking to replicate the saxophone mouthpiece on their clarinet for comfort.
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Author: Roger Aldridge
Date: 2005-01-19 14:09
It all comes down to the personal preferences of the individual player.
My saxophone set up is unusual for a person who's primarily a jazz player in that I use a classical mouthpiece for both jazz and classical playing. My favorite clarinet mouthpiece facings are 1.10 mm, 1.15 mm, and 1.28 mm. I sometimes go back and forth between them depending upon the performance setting and my general feeling of the day. I'm currently using the 1.28 mm mouthpiece most often for big band and jazz playing. I found it to have more power and a fatter sound in a big band setting than the 1.10 mm piece. But, that's just my experience. I have a clarinet buddy who's also a doubler and he sounds perfectly fine playing in a big band on a smaller piece. I haven't liked the more open "jazz" clarinet mouthpieces that I've tried. They don't sound as rich and vibrant to me as the mouthpieces I have in the 1.10 mm to 1.28 mm range. I need to have the volume needed to play clarinet unmiked in a big band AND have a beautiful sound and good control. I'm not willing to sacrifice one thing for another. For that reason, I've been very happy with the 1.28 mm piece (Morgan RM28).
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Author: jmsa
Date: 2005-01-19 14:24
To Mr. Roger Aldridge, I am using a Gonzalez FOF or Mozart 2 1/2 strength reed. I would appreciate it if you would tell me what facing in mm would be proper for these reeds. I play swing.
Thank you very much.
jmsa
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Author: Roger Aldridge
Date: 2005-01-19 15:18
Jmsa,
Well, it's typically not that simple. The facing curve of the mouthpiece has as much of a relationship to reed strength as the tip opening....perhaps more so. I had to do quite a bit of trial & error with different mouthpieces and reed brands & strengths to discover the particular combination that feels good for me. I'm using #3 Alexander Classique reeds on a Morgan RM28 most often for big band and jazz.
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Author: sinkdraiN
Date: 2005-01-19 15:54
Roger, what size alexander clasique reed is the closest match to a v12 size 3.5. I like the v12 on my morgan but I'm sick of throwing away half the box. I hear Alexander reeds are consistant. Its nice to hear you are playing the RM28 in bigband settings. I remember that mouthpiece could be played at high volume levels with no compromise in tone. Too bad I couldn't tame it- I'll stick with ,my beloved RM15
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Author: Roger Aldridge
Date: 2005-01-20 12:59
Hi sinkdraiN,
It's always good to run into you over here.
I wish that I could be of help. But, I haven't played a V12 reed in a long time. It's my impression that Classique reeds are designed differently from Vandoran models in that they have a slightly softer tip and a stronger heart. I've found Classique clarinet reeds to have a warm, rich sound with a strong tonal core. Tim Price suggested that I try Classique clarinet reeds several years ago and I've been so happy with them that I haven't used anything else since. I try other brands now and then. But, it never fails that I'm disappointed in them and I go right back to Classique.
I'd suggest that you try a box of #3.5 Classique and see what they do for you. As an aside, I've tried Alexander Superial (yellow box) and DC (black box) clarinet reeds and didn't like them. There's something about the Classique cut that really does it for me.
Roger
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Author: Ken Mills
Date: 2005-01-28 23:02
Hello Alexi, et al;
The sidewalls at the bottom, next to the bore had to be filed further apart on my 5JB to drive a V12 2.5 reed. But the Marca 2 or 2.5 is really hot too, because they are made in the same style as the V12. Power and a dark sound are superior on this equipment. I can demonstrate. I live in San Francisco. You are looking for a way to make the clarinet the king of solo instruments (I mean, monarch).
Ken
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Author: donald
Date: 2005-01-29 05:12
i know fine classical players (pros) who claim they need a more open mouthpiece to make a "bigger" (louder?) sound (i dissagree, but, well, they have more gigs than me)
i know a fine Jazz Sax player who (every time we talk about mouthpieces) tells me he needs a more and more open mouthpiece so he can get more "air into the horn". He is a fabulous Sax player, but he doesn't play any louder than i do.....
i often get the feeling that one believes what one believes, and one likes what one is used to (where mouthpieces are concerned). Sometimes this can be to your disadvantage.... other times the security and confidence this gives you is worth a great deal
donald
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Author: music_is_life
Date: 2005-02-16 15:27
>Isn't one of the side effects of an open mouthpiece more of a tendency to >bend a little out of tune?
ever heard the term "close enough for jazz"?
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