 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: buedsma
Date: 2005-01-14 19:15
playing for over 30 years and still struggling with improvising in difficult keys on the clarinet . On the sax no problem.
I had to check out why all those jazzers sound so easy and great in impro.
To my amazement, nearly all jazz tunes ( eg Paquito d'rivera ) were in rather easy keys for clarinet . Also some eddy daniels and yes , same thing
Am i wrong here ? Did someone notice the same thing ?
Do you know of good clarinet impro ( recorded !! ) in the more difficult keys ( eg 4 crosses without left eflat lever can really be difficult , from Eb on it also gets very hard to play decent )
( talking about mainstream jazz , not the older styles )
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2005-01-14 19:36
Louis Sclavis has one of the most amazing solos I've ever heard in Eb minor on bass clarinet.
Edit: That is Eb minor for bass clarinet (C# minor in concert). That is much harder than Eb minor concert which is F minor for bass clarinet.
2nd edit: Just wanted to add that Louis Sclavis actually composed this piece, and chose to play in Eb minor.
Post Edited (2005-01-16 11:41)
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Author: Dano
Date: 2005-01-14 20:59
Buedsma, I have found the same problem. What helped me is listening to Art Pepper ( who was mostly known for his amazing alto sax improvisation but really did his most wonderful stuff on clarinet) and how he develops the solos in whatever key you want. If you listen carefuly, you can tell he is no fan of Eb solos but changes things to suit him to the point where you just don't notice he is struggling. Listen to Art Pepper's rendition of Charlie Parkers "Anthropology" which he does on clarinet. The left hand Eb lever also helped me. Getting used to it was almost impossible, but once I adjusted to it, I stopped even thinking about it. Just my two cents. I hope that helps.
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2005-01-14 22:24
Rite, y'are buedsma and Dano, thinking back on my improv/combo days, the tunes always "laid better" on alto sax than Bb cl [for me], not really because of the one less b/ one more #, except for the bottom notes on saxes. Real true w: Stardust [? in Db concert?]. I played a lot of it w: Full Boehm cl and made more use of the Ab/Eb lever and the Eb/Bb fork than the others. Pete F "seems" to like the fork and the C#/G#, per Leblanc cls ! At one time I made a list of tunes with "playable keys", no consideration given to piano, prob. very common among our greats ! Memories, Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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Author: ned
Date: 2005-01-15 07:35
Omer Simeon did the famous solo on Doctor Jazz, with Jelly Roll Morton's Red Hot Peppers (check ''redhotjazz.com) in the key of Db (piano key that is). Db is certainly a finga busta key, without a doubt.
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Author: buedsma
Date: 2005-01-15 09:43
Dano,
could you give me some links to tango stuff for clarinet ??
( side question from my topic on the other bulletin board :-) )
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Author: allencole
Date: 2005-01-15 17:19
Interesting, I think that we just relived the death of the clarinet in jazz, as difficult keys force clarinet players onto the saxophone.
It's certainly possible to play reasonable solos in any key on clarinet, but I also feel that it's difficult to really blaze along in the harder keys. I had to confront this when I joined a Western band, where guitar keys ruled and I wanted to be uninhibited. The solution? An A Clarinet! Now, there are no problems--and no excuses.
I think that the biggest problem with solos in the difficult keys is that we don't practice practical things in them enough. Here are a couple of things that have helped me. One is playing the triplet thing from "Jesu Joy of Man's Desiring" in every key. It's a good ear/scale workout, and also forces some action to be taken where pinkie alternation isn't possible.
Once that's down pat, I have a personal exercise called "The Accidental Tourist" that I also play in all keys. It runs through some figures that resemble address some jazz harmony issues, and get me used to straying further from my scale (and then returning) in some of these keys.
If you're interested in trying it. Email me and I'll fix it into a .pdf.
Allen
Allen Cole
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Author: Erdinet
Date: 2005-01-16 10:04
May be it would help to think of these "easy" keys as not being easy for just the clarinet.
Why are so many jazz songs played in concert B-flat (or as its commonly called in many jazz cirlces, "the people's key")? Because B-flat concert, is C for B-flat instruments (Clarinet, Soprano & Tenor Sax, Trumet/Flugel Horn); G for E-flat instruments (Alto / Bari Sax); and not to mention, B-flat is a great key for Trombone. Think the same thing for the key of concert F. Now, add in trying to teach improvisation to a group of students and you can get an idea why these two keys are so prevalent when said students start to progress.
D-flat concert used to be a fairly popular key in the earlier days of jazz evidently. For some reason, Lester Young springs to mind; I seem to recall a lot of blue solos in D-flat concert (E-flat for tenor sax / clarinet) by Prez. These days it is certainly not unusual to hear tunes being played in any key. I believe Marcus Roberts (pianist) did a record a number of years ago that went through all the keys at some point or another. I cannot recall how many times a jam session would clear when the leader would call "Cherokee in B" or a blues in F-sharp.
Then again, being mainly a sax player, all the keys are difficult on clarinet..... Which brings us to one of the main reasons why clarinet is not so prevalent in jazz any more, its difficult to play and difficult to hear.
Adam
"There is a big difference between kneeling down and bending over."
-Frank Zappa
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2005-01-16 11:38
Also I want to add that in my opinion it's really a matter of practice. Coltrane also plays a minor blues in C# minor concert - Eb minor for tenor sax which is (at least on clarinet, I don't know about sax) one of the hardest scales. It doesn't sound like he is playing a hard scale at all, probably because he practiced this scale as much, if not more, than other scales. If someone would play Blues in F# all the time, they would be as good in F# as any other scale. Because most things are not in those scales people practice them less.
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2005-01-16 11:59
Hi,
This is a very interesting topic and one that I have pondered for many, many years. Two stories are appropriate.
When I first started gigging in HS, I played a lot with Carl LaMarca. Carl was a good accordian player with lots of flash and he could do all the showy stuff like Lady of Spain with the appropriate shakes (I think that's what they are a called). However, on a job, Carl played everything in the key of C and I mean everything. Since I was the tenor player, I learned to play in D very well and after a good bit of time, really got very comfortable with the key. Hated it then; appreciate it now for entirely different reasons.
The other story is much better and is an extension on Adam's great post above and the section about keys. There was a tenor player in TOL by the name of Candy Johnson (Candy died many years ago while on the golf course - what a great way to pass!!!!!). Candy was a very good player but not in the big leagues but he knew all the "showy stuff' just like Carl I mentioned above.
Candy used to say "any key, any time" which really drove his young keyboard player nuts. So, the keyboard player practiced and practiced on a tune that went from a tough key to a really difficult key for the bridge (I can't remember what it was). The next time Candy said "what do you want to play; any key, any time" the keyboard player said XXXX in A (I think the bridge went to E) and rips of the intro. I guess Candy really had his hands full, played really badly, and never said "any key and time" after that day (or so the story goes).
One must be careful what one asks for!
HRL
PS I often play tough key stuff on soprano sax when I want something like a clarinet-type rendering.
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Author: John Morton
Date: 2005-01-16 16:16
Regarding the reference to Lester Young and concert Db ... I have noticed a category of tunes in that key which are really Bb minor, for example LY's Tickle Toe and the Basie riff tune Topsy. Despite the scary-looking key signature these play pretty well on the Bb instruments. (In fact lead sheets commonly put such tunes in C [concert Bb] and write in the flats.)
John Morton
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Author: buedsma
Date: 2005-01-17 09:58
well, for those that don't dare to speak the word :
on tenor sax i can manage most keys that are nearly impossible on clarinet.
Partly because of the inherent throat bb problem : a physically nearly impossible note to plune AND in tune AND crystal clear and a nightmare to play with other subsequent notes in a row ( like gflat and bbthroat with an alternation to b natural )
Never had to think : this is too difficult on sax. On the clarinet , struggling to get the notes out in an acceptable tonal quality takes so much of your resources that the creative aspect is less interesting because you are always struggling.
Also noticed that most clarinet impro deviates from what you hear on mainstream jazz sax and those who succeed in their clarinet art do indeed play jazz in a very personal way. ( i don't hear typical clarinet jazz licks by one person repeated by others - on sax it's sometimes even difficult to gues who's playing because they often use the same tricks and have the same sound quality ) So i suppose clarinet is a lot more a personal instrument with "so many notes " on it that you can only manage it by creating your own style.
By the way : i heard putte wickman playing - this guy never shows up on this board ?
http://hem.passagen.se/eriahl/soundclips.htm
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