 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Robert Moody
Date: 2005-01-14 00:14
That is meant as a joke, right? ![[right]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smilie8.gif) Humor? A highschool kid's attempt to look smart?
Seriously.
Robert Moody
http://www.musix4me.com
Free Clarinet Lessons and Digital Library!
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Author: Dan Shusta
Date: 2005-01-14 02:34
To Robert Moody:
Even if the reading material and diagrams were naseatingly simple to you...
What is the real purpose of your denegrating remarks?
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Author: Sylvain
Date: 2005-01-14 03:07
Having studied in both France and the US and taught the same principles in terms of embouchure and tongue position in both paces I have some pretty big doubts about the validity of this article. No french player I met played double lip embouchure...
-S
--
Sylvain Bouix <sbouix@gmail.com>
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Author: clarinetist04
Date: 2005-01-14 03:22
While the characterizations (labels...German, French, etc.) may be a little rediculous, the article itself isn't. I've seen people play using all of these methods (nto the same person obviously) successfully.
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Author: Dan Shusta
Date: 2005-01-14 03:41
To Sylvain and clarinetist04:
Thank you for your informed responses. Your clarifications and comments were most welcomed. It does appear now that the article is misleading as to what style is predominately used in other countries.
Thanks again.
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Author: Alseg
Date: 2005-01-14 04:55
I wonder if the writer of this article has considered a career in journalism.
The New York Times and CBS News is hiring. ![[grin]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smilie5.gif)
Former creator of CUSTOM CLARINET TUNING BARRELS by DR. ALLAN SEGAL
-Where the Sound Matters Most(tm)-
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Author: Robert Moody
Date: 2005-01-14 06:30
<<Even if the reading material and diagrams were naseatingly simple to you...What is the real purpose of your denegrating remarks?>>
Simple, the article attempts to explain differing embouchures and tongue positions and the common occurences related to such embouchures and tongue positions and associating them with various country "styles" when, in reality, it merely comes across as being an attempt at a presentation by some highschool kid who read half of "The Clarinet" while formulating the rest of his work from "reason".
Secondly, the author tries to present "nauseatingly" simple ideas as if they were the results of some kinds of deep, lab oriented research.
I'm not alone in my issue with this writer's style and content. Karl Krelove wrote, "I think there is a grain of truth in its content, but it is too limited in its range, too simplistic in its distinctions (and certainly its national attributions) and, in my opinion, too shallow in its analysis of the musculature that is involved to be genuinely useful as a diagnostic or self-teaching guide. It should serve to give you an idea of how different approaches can produce good musical results when used by gifted players. But beyond that as a tutorial, I think it's usefulness is almost nil."
'Nough said, I believe. ![[cool]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/cool.gif)
Robert Moody
http://www.musix4me.com
Free Clarinet Lessons and Digital Library!
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Author: graham
Date: 2005-01-14 08:37
The author's interests are very widespread, and he says nothing about his credentials. No general conclusions are drawn. It was not proof read. But whatever source he used for this would be good to read.
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Author: Firebird
Date: 2005-01-14 13:23
Try sounding German on a French clarinet and vice versa. Obviously you can't do it. The limiting factor is the bore shape of our clarinets.
Obviously some people think too highly of themselves here.
Chan
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Author: Dan Shusta
Date: 2005-01-14 18:14
Robert Moody wrote:
1) "Secondly, the author tries to present "nauseatingly" simple ideas as if they were the results of some kinds of deep, lab oriented research."
Please provide proof of your assertion. How can you be so sure that the author is presenting this material "as if they were the results of some kinds of deep, lab oriented research"?
2) "I'm not alone in my issue with this writer's style and content.
Actually, I think you are. Karl Krelove didn't say he thought this was the work of some highschool kid copying things from "The Clarinet" and using make believe analysis of lab results and reasoning power to produce the article. You did. Karl Krelove actually gave a very thoughtful and analytical analysis of the article and I thank him for that.
3) "Karl Krelove wrote,"
Please explain who Karl Krelove is and how you obtained his quote.
From my point of view, it appears you are stating your opinions as facts. Opinions I can easily accept but, IMO, facts or assertions need to be backed up by proof or evidence.
When I presented this article, I never intended to present it as some kind of thorough, comprehensive analysis of the various types of embouchures. It was just something that was interesting to me and that I found enlightening. There were some things about the "German" style embrouchure that were totally new to me and I just wanted to share.
Personally, I believe that comical, denegrating comments don't supply any useful information for me to learn and that is why I come to this BB.
Post Edited (2005-01-14 18:56)
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Author: Tom J.
Date: 2005-01-14 19:32
When someone asked Jazz sax great Eddie "Lockjaw" Davis how he formed his embouchure he said . . ."Man, I just clamp on and blow !!!".
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Author: donald
Date: 2005-01-14 19:33
hmmmm i love the bit about "close the upper jaw on the mouthpiece", which suggests that american clarinet players have mobility in the upper teeth not enjoyed by the rest of the world....
seriously
this article contains some good stuff, and some rubish. The writer has obviously managed to collect some very good information, and is obviously very keen on the topic. I hate to discourage a youngster with so much enthusiasm and resourcefulness, but there are also parts of the article that are quite silly, in fact, incorrect. Not just "a little" incorrect, or differing from MY opinion, but just plain WRONG.
who cares particuarly? well, the problem is that some kid stuck in the boondocks will log on to the internet and use this site to try and develop a German embochure in order to sound more like his/her Karl Leister CD... this really highlights one of the weaknesses of the internet as an information source. Just as well there are so many strengths for us to enjoy...
donald
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Author: Dan Shusta
Date: 2005-01-14 21:07
donald,
I agree with you entirely about others logging on to this site and receiving false information. This is why I am now hoping that those "in the Know" will literally pick it apart and state specifically what is wrong.
Hopefully you and others will correct the discrepencies so that I and others will be edified.
Thanks.
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Author: frank
Date: 2005-01-14 21:41
Chan wrote:
<<Try sounding German on a French clarinet and vice versa. Obviously you can't do it. The limiting factor is the bore shape of our clarinets.>>
This statement in simply not true. There are some bright, "French" sounding German system players out there and some dark sounding "German" Boehm system players as well. Bore contributes to sound and pitch, but it isn't the major factor in sounding dark, bright, German, Italian, English, American or French. The most important part of acheiving a certain sound concept has to do with the mind. Physical factors adapt to what the brain wants to do. The right kind of equipment, embouchure, etc. makes whatever your concept may be easier to produce... or it should!
On another note, I read this article/treatise and must agree somewhat with Robert. The diagrams are misleading and do not accurately show tongue position, mouthpiece placement that would actually help produce a nice, fundamental and proper sound. I do not agree with the writer's descriptions of the different "schools" of embouchure and words many things wrongly. Most of what was written sounded as if he/she was trying to be analytical without any practical experience. This is what Robert was trying to get at I believe, correct me if I am wrong. The article was fun to read but honestly, it made me cringe. And oh yeah... made me laugh a bit. For strick entertainment value, it was nice.
:)
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Author: Alseg
Date: 2005-01-14 23:46
Has anyone emailed the author for info or sources?
I think there was a mailto: link on the page.
Former creator of CUSTOM CLARINET TUNING BARRELS by DR. ALLAN SEGAL
-Where the Sound Matters Most(tm)-
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Author: Dan Shusta
Date: 2005-01-15 00:06
I just sent an email to the person who might be the author and will inform everyone with whatever information I receive.
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Author: Robert Moody
Date: 2005-01-15 04:35
Suggests anyone who is feeling tightness in the chest or tenseness in the scalp to take a second or two and breathe slowly and as deeply as possible. LOL.
In brief reply:
The reason I describe the website author as trying to present their explanations as "fact" or "lab tested" information is because they do not suggest that it is their opinion, just that it is. And the manner in which is it presented comes across that way (i.e. not a "hey let me share some ideas with you" type of approach). [Note: "as if" denotes opinion.]
Whatever description you'd like to give to Mr. Krelove's comments, I still believe he agrees with me about the style and content of the website. It comes across as someone who is "trying to know" more than they do ["There must be no effort or confusion in this simple requirement."]...hogwash. The information is presented "as if" they knew something special, but the content inaccuracy shows otherwise and ends up making them look somewhat foolish for the whole spiel.
Karl Krelove is a prominent poster on the Klarinet list that has shown over years of posting his knowledge of the clarinet and his ability to reason well and logically. I particularly like when he confronts Dan Leeson's posts. ![[up]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smiley24.gif) Nevertheless, my mentioning Mr. Krelove was just to point out that this website has been seen before around these parts and that it has been disputed before as well.
Oh well.
Take care,
Robert Moody
http://www.musix4me.com
Free Clarinet Lessons and Digital Library!
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2005-01-15 05:45
Quote:
I just sent an email to the person who might be the author and will inform everyone with whatever information I receive. Whether the author check here or not, it might be nice (and politically correct also) to make sure that the author is ok with you posting whatever he responded.
US Army Japan Band
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Author: Vytas
Date: 2005-01-15 18:50
My two cents:
I was born in Europe and studded clarinet at two European music conservatories. In Europe 'Boehm system' clarinet is called simply 'French system' and everyone who plays the 'French system' clarinet is associated with the 'French school' and you don't have to be French.
The same story with 'German system' clarinets, nobody calls it 'Albert system' there (things may have changed now) and everyone who plays that system associated with the 'German school'.
Until I moved to US about 10 years ago I've never even heard about double lip embouchure and I play 'French system' (Boehm) clarinet.
I've met several 'German system' clarinet players but all of them used regular embouchure where the lower lip covers the teeth so I assume the method described in the article is very, very old or it's not used by ALL 'German system' players.
Vytas Krass
Professional clarinet technician
Custom clarinet mouthpiece maker
Former professional clarinet player
Post Edited (2005-01-16 02:04)
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Author: Dan Shusta
Date: 2005-01-16 03:51
What was important to me about this article was not how it was packaged or how complete it was but whether certain general concepts presented were correct or not.
Specifically I wanted to know if indeed there were 3 classifications of embouchures and whether the country names associated with each were truly accurate.
After reading the thoughtful replies from Sylvain and Vytas, it appears that the so called "French" and "German" embouchures are not the dominate types used in those countries.
donald and frank did say that they found things wrong with the article but did not reveal specifically what those were. I hope they will state exactly what they found wrong in the article.
I found it interesting that so much attention was paid to the packaging or how it was put together. Again, what mattered most to me as time went by was not how it was produced or even who authored the article. For me it was the content...was it accurate or not.
My thanks to all. This has been quite a learning experience for me.
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Author: frank
Date: 2005-01-16 15:09
Don,
There are far too many inaccuracies in the article to mention here. I would have to notate the entire article and it would take some explaining. One of the most important things wrong in my opinion is the labeling of "schools" of embouchure. As I mentioned before, the diagrams are not accurate and are out of scale Plus, in the author's defined "French Method", are we to assume from the diagram that people who play double lip ONLY anchor tongue? One ridiculous comment which confirms what I just wrote was this little item: <<"On a short lay mouthpiece, the tongue may be used against the tip but on a longer lay, the tongue attacks under the reed similar to the French Method." >> I could go on and on with these sort of silly quotes. Don't buy it!  Bottom line is the content IS NOT ACCURATE
For proper playing, there is double lip and single lip. Tip of tongue on reed or anchor tonguing (less popular) for articulation. Those are the basics. I know you want the article to be meaningful and correct.. so do I, but it would not be wise to veiw it as anything other than entertainment. If you want to learn about embouchure, read the Larry Guy book, talk to former Marcellus students, ask professional advice, etc.
Post Edited (2005-01-16 15:10)
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Author: Vytas
Date: 2005-01-16 18:40
The (REAL) French method:
H. Klose wrote: (18XX)
"Federic Berr a pure and brilliant talent, a theoretical knowledge both profound and extensive, besides the beautiful compositions he has left, acquired and assured him the title of Founder of the French School of the Clarinet. It is to his school that I glory to belong, and all my life shall be devoted to promulgating and following the valuable precepts he has inculcated."
"POSITION OF THE MOTHPIECE IN THE MOUTH.
Insert nearly half the mouthpiece (beak) into the mouth the read being under underneath. The lower lip must be drawn in so as to cover the teeth. The upper lip must be slightly pressed downwards to prevent the teeth biting the mouthpiece and damaging the quality of tone. The mouthpiece thus being held by light pressure of both lips, the air cannot escape by the sides of the mouth: the reed can then act freely and perform its vibration with all desirable facility: if on the contrary the mouthpiece is too tightly compressed in the mouth the reed has no longer any play, the lips become tired, and we only obtain poor and snuffing tone."
"OF THE EMBOUCHURE
The embouchure is the interpreter of our sensations and of our musical ideas. A good embouchure is there-fore indispensable, and all our labors must tend to this result. To attain this end we must possess the two constitutive elements of the finest embouchure, which are: delicacy of tone and lightness of tongue."
H. Klose succeeded Berr at the Royal Conservatory of music.
Vytas Krass
Professional clarinet technician
Custom clarinet mouthpiece maker
Former professional clarinet player
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