 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: AJ
Date: 2005-01-09 19:20
Hello,
I am working on the Grand Duo and my teacher and I are having some differences of opinions on the tempo of the piece. Especially on the first and last movement. Well I think it should be played fast with fire and still expression, but my private teacher says I loose some of the musicality when I play it this fast becuase it just becomes technical but I feel like I am still being musical while playing that fast. My band teacher says to not sacrifice musicality for speed, but when I practice it I cant feel the loss of musicality. What do you guys think about the Weber Grand Duo? thank you
AJ
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Author: bkmorton
Date: 2005-01-09 20:20
Are there any publishers that have the edition that Simeon Bellison used when he played this piece? Some publishers do not write the editors names.
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Author: susannah
Date: 2005-01-09 20:45
It can be tempting to play things fast; its exciting and fun! But it might be worth recording yourself (tape, mini-disk etc), and listening back to see how it sounds from an audience perspective. If you don't trust your teacher or aren't going to listen to their advice there's really no point having the lessons - either find another teacher or start listening.
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Author: RAMman
Date: 2005-01-09 20:56
That's good advice Susannah...
I'll add, something played slower and well, sounds miles better than something fast and scruffy.
Also bear in mind, that the piano part to Weber Grand Duo is a nightmare.
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Author: GBK
Date: 2005-01-09 22:09
The Weber piece is NOT a solo, but a DUO.
When you understand that concept, you will better see that your teacher is correct...GBK
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2005-01-09 23:00
Try to find (if there even is one!) a recording of Harold Wright playing the work.
He wasn't much of a speed demon, and was always musical.
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Author: theclarinetist
Date: 2005-01-10 04:01
All of this begs the question, how fast is too fast?? I have a recording of Paul Meyer playing it at a dazzlingly quick speed, but I think it pulls it off (with the help of an amazing pianist). I also have a recording with Colin Lawson playing it almost irritatingly slow (it's on a period instrument, which could be part of it), but his attention to phrasing and detail makes passages that (at his chosen tempo) could be tedious actually quite nice to listen to. So, in the right hands, I think both extremes are completely doable...
I think it is a common error that people always separate musical performances into the distinct and mutually exclusively categories... slow and good vs. fast and bad. I don't think it's a matter of either playing it fast or playing it with good musicality. The goal of an accomplished musician should be to marry the expressiveness with the virtuosity. However, I would say that if it HAD to be one or the other (which is often does in the real world), musicality should definitely take priority.
I think it is more challenging to play a piece like the Grand Duo more slowly because forces you to focus on the phrasing, where as at fast tempos you may just rip through phrase without a second glance. Also, you say that as you slow it down, it seems to lose musicality. It's possible that it isn't all that musical at a faster tempo. It's easy to mistake momentum and energy for musicality.
My advice would be to compromise. Practice it more slowly. Even if you end up playing it quickly, the slow practice will help you gain insight into phrasing and musical issues that you may have ignored when practicing fast. I've only performed the piece once, but I agree with the above sentiment about pianists. Odds are you'll be hard pressed to find a pianist who wants (or is willing/able) to play the pieces incredibly fast. If you play it moderately, really delve into the phrasing and structure of the melodies and see what you can bring out. If you are bored when you are playing, the audience will CERTAINLY be bored listening to you.
Good Luck
DH
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Author: LeWhite
Date: 2005-01-10 04:09
If it loses musicality when you slow it down, it means that you possibly don't have any musicality to begin with and playing fast covers that up.
You can either do it your way and find out further down the track that your way isn't always best, or learn it now. I suggest learn it now; it will save you hassle and will bring you more success in the long-term.
__________________
Don't hate me because I play Leblanc! ![[down]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smiley23.gif) Buffet
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2005-01-10 19:08
AJ -
The first movement can go at 132 if both you and the pianist can handle it, but as LeWhite says, the important thing is the musicality. It has to be great, lusty fun as well as fiery. I'd work it out until you and the pianist are perfectly in synch at 120 before trying anything faster. It can be done very effectively at 120.
The third movement has to be slow enough to have a bit of swing and sweetness. You have plenty of opportunity to push things at the end.
As GBK and theclarinetist say, you need to listen hard to the pianist. There are many running passages where the two of you must be absolutely together. If you drift apart, that's a sure sign that the tempo is too fast, especially if you can't adjust instantly to get back together.
This kind of unevenness is probably what your teacher heard. Also, the Grand Duo is great music, which you should be able to play effectively at nearly any tempo. Weber wrote mostly for Baermann, whose specialty was grace and beauty of tone. However, as I recall, the premiere of the Grand Duo was given by Hermstedt, whose specialty was fire and speed. You need both. Two professional ears have heard you and say you're going too fast. Trust them.
If you can find it, listen to Kell's recording, which I think gets the tempos just right.
Ken Shaw
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2005-01-10 19:22
Fast should never sound frantic (unless the composer wants it that way). Also (ideally) fast should never sound like you are working hard to play it.
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Author: Meri
Date: 2005-01-10 19:41
AJ: Your teacher is right, never sacrifice musicality for speed. The canon on the second page of the clarinet part of the first movement Grand Duo and the one near the end will be far easier to pull off at a slower tempo than a fast one; I like about 120-124 for the quarter note. (after having performed this movement about 6 weeks ago with my pianist)
Meri
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Author: AJ
Date: 2005-01-10 21:54
Hello everyone, thanks for the advice so far.
I have been practicing it a bit slower, the tempo my teacher prefers. I think what happened is I completely forgot that it was infact a DUO rather than a solo piece and I only focused on my part stressing on only the technicality and the speed of the piece.
I recently had the chance to practice this piece with a pianist and I suffered so much, thats all I need to say! And then my teacher had the wonderful moment of saying, "I told you say," although she said it indirectly.
Thanx everyone.
Eat all your vegetables!
AJ
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2005-01-11 02:43
I have an arrangement of the Grand Duo for 2 Clarinets. Needless to say, the 2nd clarinet part is a bit harder than the 1st.
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