 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Dano
Date: 2005-01-08 01:24
I see that some companies offer clarinets with leather pads and others like Buffet, offer Gore-tex. I know that gore-tex breaths but does it last at all? Why would gore-tex be anymore beneficial than leather and what makes leather so good? I can't figure out why it matters as long as you get a good seal. If you had a clarinet re-padded, what kind of pads would you go for?
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2005-01-08 05:03
As far as what matters with a good seal, it's also how well it releases the seal (does it stick too much?), whether it's so hard that there's a noticeable pop when you close a pad, how long it lasts (although you knew that), how it reacts with salive (for instance, will the saliva just mount around it and create bubbles when you go to play? Does it soak up the saliva and lose it's seal due to being engorged with water?)
I think most people have a preference. Which leads me to think that with care, all (or most) ideas probably work just as well as another. I opted for all leather pads, a la Spiegelthal.
Alexi
US Army Japan Band
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Author: ron b
Date: 2005-01-08 06:11
I've found over many years of playing and padding clarinets, Dano, that good ol' double skin bladder pads are about as all around good as it gets.
...and, yes, your opinion is as good as anyone else's too... 
- r![[cool]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/cool.gif) n b -
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2005-01-08 10:53
I agree with all of the above.
Some other points perhaps worth mentioning:
Leather pads tend to be porous and leak air. They also absorb water which makes them harden quickly. Many leather pads these days are surface treated so they do not do this. At least some of the common, current surface treatments tend to make them more sticky - quite a problem for saxophones.
I don't think the Goretex of pads is the same as the Goretex 'breathable' membrane of wet weather gear. There is no point in having breathable pads, neither for breathing air, nor water vapour. What is more likely is that the Goretex is a teflon coating over some synthetic base, such that the pad seals and also perhaps REPELS moisture. If indeed the goretex is a coating, then how long the pad coating lasts intact would be of interest.
As far as I know, even on wet weather gear, 'Goretex' refers to a very fragile, microscopically porous PTFE ('teflon') membrane laminated between two other materials, the inner for protection and avoiding clammy feel, and the outer to protect and encourage water not to coat the surface, blocking the 'breathing'.
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Author: CrazyCanuck
Date: 2005-01-08 19:27
Hey Guys,
I have worked in outdoor retail selling many many types of gore-tex over the years, and here are my two cents.
First some basics about Gore-Tex: As previously mentioned it is a membrane, with the basic idea being that there are millions of tiny microscopic holes that are large enough to allow water vapour to move across, but not big enoguh to allow water droplets to move through. This solves a common problem for hikers who sweat a lot (up to a litre/hour, no joke) but need to wear rain protection.
The problem with Gore-Tex is that as with any membrane (and i'm not a chemist...) is that the water vapour will move from the area of greater concentration to lesser concentration. This will pose a major problem for the clarinet pads as they will allow water vapour to move across the gore-tex and leave you with soggy pads. The pads will, however, start to dry out when you stop playing and the water vapourizes again, moving back across the membrane.
The same issue occurs for hikers in climates where the water vapour is near 100% (think South Asia) and a Gore-tex jacket does little good.
What the pads should be made of is the same type of material without the holes... this (asusming the pads are dry to begin with) will keep the moisture out while allowing for the flexibility that Gore-Tex would give.
Call up Peter Spriggs and get some cork pads (most of them)... i've had them on my horn for about 10 years now and have never had a leak! For the others, the skin pads work fine... just use common sense and swab more or learn to somehow condense less.
Nick
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Author: Vytas
Date: 2005-01-08 21:52
*****"Leather pads tend to be porous and leak air. They also absorb water which makes them harden quickly. Many leather pads these days are surface treated so they do not do this. At least some of the common, current surface treatments tend to make them more sticky - quite a problem for saxophones."*****
Every time we have a discussion about leather pads I see the same statement: "Leather pads tend to be porous and leak air".
I find this statement absolutely unfounded and would like to know what brand exactly of lather pads for SOPRANO CLARINET leak air. It seems that discussion always starts on leather pads for soprano clarinet and then somehow twisted in to something else. I don't really care what leather pads do on saxophones when we talk clarinets.
There is no ideal pad on the market yet. All the materials the pads are made from have their own good and bad side to it. After working on (almost) all of them I choose leather pads for soprano clarinets and I don't have anything against any other pad.
Vytas Krass
Professional clarinet technician
Custom clarinet mouthpiece maker
Former professional clarinet player
Post Edited (2005-01-08 21:53)
Post Edited (2005-01-08 22:23)
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Author: BobD
Date: 2005-01-08 22:08
Thanks Vytas. Your expert opinion is always appreciated by me. I do wonder, however, why a silicone rubber O-ring pad design has not appeared. O-rings are the ultimate seal....are they not?
Bob Draznik
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Author: Dano
Date: 2005-01-08 22:18
In that case Vytas, what would you recomend doing in the case of leather pads that stick even when the clarinet has not been played for a long time? I appreciate your expert opinion also.
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Author: Fred
Date: 2005-01-08 22:23
I think cork and leather pads are nice from a longevity standpoint. My greatest concern is the four large pads on the lower joint. So far, I've only had my technician put double skin bladder on those, but I might try leather. Vytas, you must have convinced yourself that they are good all around. Any special issues with the large pads?
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Author: Vytas
Date: 2005-01-08 22:37
Fred,
I understand where you're going with this...and that would be four large pads on the lower joint for a big bore instrument like Selmer. Isn't it?
I do not have any issues with these pads at all. Big bore instruments have very large tone holes for these keys. It seems that the key cups are too small and the only way to make it work is with stepped bladder pads or you might get very unreliable seal. But here is MY trick. Just ask your technician to install the oversized leather pads on these keys. This way an oversized leather pad will become like a stepped skin pad. It's a bit harder to seat them properly but that's about it.
Vytas
Post Edited (2005-01-09 00:00)
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Author: Vytas
Date: 2005-01-08 23:22
BobD,
There are several artificial/synthetic pads on the market. They seal perfect but the problem is that you cannot install them with a conventional method because the glue just wouldn't stick to them. To make them stick manufacturers use a paper backing on the bottom of the pad but this backing is glued to the pad with some kind sticker messy glue which is very unreliable (if you tried to reseat the pad after longer use). These pads failed on me numerous times. For instance, Valentino pads besides that, become 'A' shaped after longer use and you really don't want that to happen to your pad because it creates undesirable turbulence around it. So I think that's the reason why these pads are not very popular.
Who wants materials that last forever anyway? Short lasting skin pads keep us technicians busy. Ha-ha! So don't be surprised to hear that these pads are the best.
Vytas
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Author: Vytas
Date: 2005-01-09 01:01
Dano,
Leather pads might become a sticky business indeed especially if you have a peanut butter sandwich at the same time when you practice the Weber 'Concertino' on your clarinet.
One thing I can say for certain that lather pads are unsuitable for the wrap-around register key on old clarinets. It sticks to the chimney like hell. You would think the 3rd chair player did it to you with crazy glue because he hates you.
I have all of mine clarinets re-padded with lather and I have no problems with them. I have hundreds of customers that don't complain (maybe they afraid of me ha-ha!) so I wouldn't know.
Oh well, there was one case when the dye/paint on the leather pad started acting sticky and I had to replace that pad. Also you want to stay away from the treated leather pads this stuff makes these pads stick (I mean that waterproofing stuff).
If you have annoying sticky pad, you can put some baby powder on a $100.00 bill. Then wipe this powder away with your hand then put the bill under the pad, close the key and pull the bill out. It usually does the trick. Just make sure you are using a $100 bill or it might not work! Ha-ha!
Ok. I'm done with this 'one man show' on this thread. No more questions please.
BobD thank you for the label 'Your expert opinion' Im going to wear it to work tomorrow.
Vytas Krass
Professional clarinet technician
Custom clarinet mouthpiece maker
Former professional clarinet player
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2005-01-09 08:07
BobD wrote "..... I do wonder, however, why a silicone rubber O-ring pad design has not appeared. O-rings are the ultimate seal....are they not?
No, not really. They are not the ultimate seal when...
1. A key hinges from one side, resulting in unequal pressure around the seal.
2. Where the surface often has slight irregularities in it.
3. There is some play in the mechanical action on which the ring is mounted.
4. A seal is required with the application of very little finger pressure.
5. A seal is required with very little travel after the the O-ring has first met the surface it closes against.
Indeed, I cannot think of an engineering application where O-rings ARE used with all of these problems.
Felt has the amazing ability to PERMANENTLY 're-shape' slightly to accommodate minor discrepancies in sealing, so that very little finger or spring pressure is required after the initial closure of the pad.
No solid elastomers do this. Some modern foamed polymers/elastomers are getting close, but all that I have tried tend to keep seating deeper and deeper, interfering with the venting where this is critical.
The closest pad to an O-ring concept is perhaps the Norbec pads, made from silicon rubber with a cork backing for adhesion. They require attention to issues in the list above, and are slightly sticky. They would typically take 3 or 4 times as long to install so that they do not leak. They are totally waterproof and last extraordinarily well. They never develop and indented 'seat', so the sealing is over a very small width circle. There must be no unfilled grain across tone holes, seen under strong magnification.
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Author: Terry Stibal
Date: 2005-01-09 20:09
Raised above is an issue that I've noticed for years, that being the "angled" approach of clarinet "keys" (the pad cup) to the tone hole seats. To my knowledge, there's only been one real attempt to fix that problem, and it didn't appear to be greeted with much acceptance.
Back at the ICS (now apparently the ICA) clarinet bash held at the University of Virginia in Richmond VA (mid to late 1980's or so) our booth in the vendor's room was located next to an Israeli fellow who was showing his patent applied for or patent pending idea for pads and seats on woodwind instruments.
While his experimentation and design had been done on a bassoon (which looked quite out of place in a showroom with several hundred clarinets on display), the idea was both sound and novel in the pure, PTO sense of the word. And, since that date I've seen nada as far as any further use of the concept.
Instead of soft, fuzzy maple wood seats with bladder or leather pad surfaces placed against the seat by a hinged key approaching at a very slight (but still significant) tangent, his invention used "inserted in place" metal tone hole seats that were covered by "machined to match" metal 'stoppers' (almost all were cone shaped, as I recall, and fit INTO the seats) that were so operated as to squarely approach the tone hole seats (rather than the "clapper" style of keys that are so common on instruments today). Think ground glass liquor bottle stopper in a bottle neck and you've got a good picture of the system.
Being a bassoon player of somewhat dubious antecedents, I was able to try the horn that he had as his demo, and I have to admit that his product "did the trick". Notes that often come out "fuzzy" on the fag were clear as a bell, and the closures worked as advertised. There was no "excessive" clicking (as anyone who knows anything about bassoons, key noise is a problem on the best of them), either from the seating of the "valves" or from the somewhat involved keywork that allowed for the "square approach" of the stoppers to the seats. While the translation across "platforms" is not 100% valid, I would say that the tone quality approached the difference of a sax with resonators and one without - pure and consistent through the two and a half octaves that I could manage on the evil "bundle o' sticks".
Of course, the idea was pretty radical, and probably the worst way of placing it before the conservative clarinet community (the same people who sometimes object to all of the "extra weight" added by a LH Eb/Ab lever, all the while retaining the twice as heavy bell ring) was to trot it out in the guise of a bassoon. ("Athemia! Athemia!" - you could almost read the thoughts of the players who examined it.) He had a lot of lookers during the three days we were open for business, but few bothered to take any of his literature and none returned for a second look.
(Well, there was one. Leon Russianoff came by not less than three times. However, I think that was because he developed a thing for my lovely wife, and he "hung out" at the bassoonist's table while waiting for Joyce Ann to get freed up from someone at our table. He even asked her to go with him to one of Michelle Gringras' recitals. A nice old guy, and one that will be missed for his insight and ready wit (Joyce Ann had a great time with him as his "date".))
Anyway, our bassoonist friend was pretty nonplused by the lack of interest shown by the clarinet community. We were seated at the same table with him during the pig roast held at the Harrison plantation on Thursday night, along with Eddie (Note the shameless effort to drop another name; most of you may know him as Mr. Daniels of concert hall and recording fame, but to us he's remembered as "Eddie on the Twin Peaks soundtrack, with a nice forkful of pig in his hand".) In between the sounds of the four of us stuffing ourselves with the meal, he asked us all about what we thought he should do.
And, I can't say that anyone present could come up with an answer, at least not one other than the obvious one. He never did offer up much information as to how his machinery was received by the crook and boot fraternity, so there was nothing against which to gauge the (lack of) success that he experienced in Richmond. The general consensus ended up being that we clarinet players are a conservative bunch.
(I leave untouched the subject of what an Israeli was doing at a pig roast. The roast suckling that they served up was the best of that species that we've ever tasted, so it may have had something to do with his participation. Lots of nasty black flies flitting around, though - wave them away with one hand while eating with the other was the accepted technique.)
In any event, I saw his mechanisms needed to make the "right angle" approach to the seats as the main problem. (These were seen in the proposed drawings that he had, not on the bassoon at the conference, which had more or less "standard" keywork modified to accommodate the seats and seals.) And, while the properly functioning finished "system" may have worked well, it would have been one open to all sorts of damage from normal handling.
It's not impossible to translate radial motion around a pivot (as occurs with virtually all woodwind instrument touchpieces) into vertical movement towards or away from a tone-hole. From what I recall of the mechanism, there was a significant number of "scissor" linkages (like the ones that suspend a mirror from a hotel wall, or as used in the things provided in old dry goods stores to snatch stuff off of the top shelf), and these would have done the trick well enough.
However, the added complexity (at a scale far beyond that of oboe mechanism) and frailty of all of those pivot points would certainly have made it hard to keep in adjustment. I also think that there was some exploration of the use of Bowden cables (steel wire running through a flexible tube of spring-like wire, fastened securely at both ends but otherwise free in the middle) for some of the longer linkages on the long and bell joints.
All in all, the final realization looked (to me, at least) like a mechanical nightmare. But, there's no doubt that it would have sent the seals into the seats in a straight on fashion.
No end to the ingenuity of folks, I guess. His solution made the felt pad covered with skin look very "old fashioned" and low tech. Operating in the real world of orchestra pit and stage, however, I'd be willing to bet that the old way was the better one...
leader of Houston's Sounds Of The South Dance Orchestra
info@sotsdo.com
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