 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: DAVE
Date: 2004-09-28 05:07
I really enjoy listening to this orchestra. The clarinets have a very unique sound that is round and full of character.
What type of clarinets and mouthpieces to the clarinetists use?
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Author: OpusII
Date: 2004-09-28 05:59
Dave,
Solo clarinetist George Pieterson has left the Concertgebouw orchestra, he played on a Würlitzer clarinet. His pupils Arno Piters ans Arno Stoffelsma have taken over his difficult task.
Arno Piters and Arno Stoffelsma both play on viotto mouthpieces and I believe they play also the Würlitzer clarinet, but i'm not 100% sure of that.
Eddy
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Author: Ben
Date: 2004-09-28 06:21
As far as I know, the Herbert Wurlitzer (mainly or all Reform-Boehm) clarinets are what is exclusively played in this orchestra. Not sure about mouthpieces, but perhaps Wurlitzer, too. I know that Karl-Heinz Steffens (principal in Berlin Phil.) plays a Wurlitzer mp.
http://www.wurlitzerklarinetten.de/flash/home.html
Under the Artist section, it lists some of the players of their instruments; German and Reform-Boehm systems, including several current and retired players from the Concertgebouw.
Another interesting, slightly dated, article about the Reform-Boehm clarinets:
http://www.cherryvalleymusic.com/articles/wurlitzer1.htm
I know also they recently started offering a barrel with a different bore for the Reform-Boehm clarinets, to help adapt a French style mouthpieces to their instruments. I guess they are trying to appeal to a wider market base, particularly US clarinetists who don't much want to switch to a different style mouthpiece and reed. They are still more expensive than other makers (Buffet, Selmer, etc.), but I think the wait time has gone down some from what it use to be. Depends on how many orders they have before yours, as they only make an instrument after it has been ordered.
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Author: OpusII
Date: 2004-09-28 13:09
Confirmation on the Viotto mouthpieces:
http://www.basdejong.com/clarinettists.html
Eddy
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Author: Liquorice
Date: 2004-09-28 14:11
Last year two vacancies were advertised in the Concertgebouw orchestra. They stipulated that you have to play Reform-Boehm clarinet in the advertisement. All the clarinetists in the Concertgebouw play Wurlitzer Reform-Boehm.
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Author: D Dow
Date: 2004-09-28 16:29
I have always loved the way this orchestra can play...very nice strings and tangy winds. Quite different from the american orchestral sound...more bite and tartness to the sonority...I also love the horn section of this group.
David Dow
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Author: David Peacham
Date: 2004-09-28 17:25
"They stipulated that you have to play Reform-Boehm clarinet in the advertisement."
I thought the idea of the Reform-Boehm was to achieve the sound qualities of the German bore with the (generally) greater fluency of fingering of the Boehm system. As such, a Reform-Boehm should surely sound identical to any other German clarinet; the fingering should make no difference.
If this is true, why did they not simply stipulate that you have to play a German bore?
I know why. Because then the job might not go to a Dutchman.
Am I just being excessively cynical, or is this really just a bit of good old-fashioned national restrictive practices such as the dear old EU is supposed to outlaw?
-----------
If there are so many people on this board unwilling or unable to have a civil and balanced discussion about important issues, then I shan't bother to post here any more.
To the great relief of many of you, no doubt.
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2004-09-28 19:15
Funny that I was just looking at the Viotto Sponsor link at the top of this very page!
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Author: Liquorice
Date: 2004-09-28 20:59
"If this is true, why did they not simply stipulate that you have to play a German bore?"
David- I'm sorry, I made a mistake. I remember now that the advertisment was for players of Reform-Boehm and German system. But they still took two Reform-Boehm players at the audition.
You're right- the idea of the Reform-Boehm is supposed have a "German" sound with Boehm fingering. While this may seem an ideal to some, I must say that all but one of the players of Reform-Boehm that I've heard have had sounded very different from German players. The Reform-Boehm players tend to sound quite bright to me. I did hear one player who achieves a wonderful "German" sound on the Reform-Boehm, so I guess it boils down to who's actually blowing the thing, more than the instrument itself.
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Author: OpusII
Date: 2004-09-28 21:01
David,
Quote:
I know why. Because then the job might not go to a Dutchman.
Am I just being excessively cynical, or is this really just a bit of good old-fashioned national restrictive practices such as the dear old EU is supposed to outlaw?
As being a Dutchman....I really think you're excessively cynical.
Maybe they just like to have the same sort of clarinets in the section? Many orchestra in our country try to do this....But I have to agree with you that it's silly, because you can't here te difference between a Boehm/Reform-boehm.
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Author: diz
Date: 2004-09-28 23:22
can't hear the difference between Beohm and reform-Boehm ... says who???
The German bore (which the Reform is based on) produces a distinctly different sound.
Also ... about fingering being more fluent on the Boehm, David Peacham, have you played both? I have and I totally disagree with you on that point, but that's just my experience.
Without music, the world would be grey, very grey.
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Author: DAVE
Date: 2004-09-29 00:09
Thanks for the responses. Now I can "place" their sound in my head. It never sounded exactly German or French, but a nice blending of both with a bit of the English sound thrown in. I particularly liked Mr. Dow's "tangy" comment. When I read that, I thought "exactly!" For my taste, that type of sound really capture's the spirit of Mahler and Shostakovich.
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Author: diz
Date: 2004-09-29 02:43
Blumberg...I'm assuming you can qualify your statement because you've played both systems? I have ... I can and speak from experience.
Without music, the world would be grey, very grey.
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2004-09-29 02:53
Uh Diz, no - actually I'm quoting Michele Zukovsky a good friend of mine.
Those were her exact words and "she plays both" 
I did try her German system Clarinet but it was completely on her setup as my MP wouldn't fit at all on her Clarinet.
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Author: OpusII
Date: 2004-09-29 05:46
Diz...thnx for the response, it was very late......I wanted to say between german-system and reform-boehm. Sorry for the confusion.
Doesn't a difference in bore dimension always make a difference in sound?
Post Edited (2004-09-29 06:45)
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Author: Arno
Date: 2004-12-29 22:03
Hello,
I 'm sending a message about the "Concertgebouw clarinets". I saw messages with my name in at the internet. If there are questions, I'm willing to answer them.
I'm not sure who I'm sending this mail to because this is the first time I'm at Clarinet Board.
Greetings Arno
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Author: Alphie
Date: 2004-12-30 15:25
The last players who used the German system are Piet Honing and recently retired Eb-player Willem van der Vuurst. If bass-clarinet Geert van Keulen plays German I can't remember.
Alphie
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Author: Arno
Date: 2004-12-30 18:12
George Pieterson was the first solo clarinet in the Royal Concertgebouw Orchestra who played Reform-Boehm system. Piet Honigh played German System as well as Willem van der Vuurst. Geert van Keulen plays Reform-Boehm (Fritz Wurlitzer). Arno Stoffelsma plays Herbert Wurlitzer R/B and I play Herbert Wurlitzer R/B and Leitner & Kraus R/B. Jacques Meertens plays Leitner & Kraus R/B and Wurlitzer R/B as well.
The reason we play this instruments is that in range of colours and power to reach the backseats in a big concert hall these instruments have the best capabilities according to us and most dutch clarinet players. A lot of German System players switch to R/B, and even a lot of Buffet Crampon or Leblanc players throughout the world change to Wurlitzer or Leitner & Kraus R/B.
The advertisement said R/B or German System, but in fact there were a few players at the auditions playing complete different brands of instruments. All the rounds except the final one were played behind a curtain and in two auditions (1st and e-flat+2nd) all the finalists (8 people) played Wurlitzer R/B. I can tell that these people play totally different, but this result says something about an orchestra's taste. I have always been thinking that there is not only one way to play the clarinet. Of course there are a million ways, but one instrument fits better than another. True artists can play one a spoon if they have to! The real sound you make as a clarinettist, or as a clarinetgroup is in your head! I've played with the Gustav Mahler Youth Orchestra with Pierre Boulez, and we were playing with 6 clarinet players:
1 Yamaha, 4 Buffet Crampon's and 1 Wurlitzer and it was not single problem to become a group. The biggest difference between the Wurlitzer and the rest, is the power and variety of colours.
Hope there's a little more clarity,
AP
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Author: John Scorgie
Date: 2004-12-30 22:46
Arno --
Thanks for your most informative post on the clarinetists of, IMHO, the greatest orchestra in the world.
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Author: Arno
Date: 2004-12-31 11:16
Hi John,
what is IMHO? And are you a clarinet player yourself?
Greetings
AP
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Author: Aussie Nick
Date: 2005-01-01 01:37
John can reply with info about him and his playing, but I'll just let Arno know IMHO stands for In My Honest Opinion. And I share the same opinion of the Royal Concertgebouw.
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Author: Arno
Date: 2005-01-01 14:05
Well that's nice to hear. Happy New Year everyone by the way.
AP
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Author: mokkaaa
Date: 2006-02-19 17:43
Still listening to war concerto from dirk brosse which arno has played,
Love the sound of him..
also a nice round voice in the highest register.
wish i was so good as him.
gr.
Ralph
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Author: k_leister
Date: 2006-02-21 07:09
Talking of sound, the Wurlitzer mouthpieces are made of acrylic instead of hard rubber.. if this may contribute to the discussion.
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Author: rc004e
Date: 2006-02-22 04:44
Hi Arno,
I just wanted to say "thanks " for such an informative response. I was wondering if you could go into details about the Concertgebouw's recent Bass Clarinet auditions. This was opened up to players from the US(french system) and I was wondering if any players from the US were invited and if any advanced or again, was the orchestra in favor of the reformed behm sound in the end. Who won the job and also who won the recent principal clarinet audition? What else was on the bass list besides Wagner-Tristan, Shostakovich-8, Bach and Mozart concerto?
Thanks,
Roman
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Author: Tata
Date: 2007-08-13 17:14
hello,
please tell me what the different between Reform-Boehm and Boehm?(figering).
thank
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2007-08-13 18:24
Reform Boehm clarinets have a throat Bb vent that opens only when both the speaker key and throat A are opened together, they have a ring for LH finger 3 to facilitate the Ab-Bb trill (playing Ab and trilling LH finger 2) and also the F#-G# trill (by playing F# and trilling LH finger 3) which there's no need for an articulated G# key - the LH 3 ring has a vent soldered to it which is closed by LH finger 3 and the C#/G# key, as well as the RH rings to leave the LH 3 chimney open when the ring is lowered.
On the lower joint there's an Acton vent to make the B and F# much clearer (and also gives a good altissimo Eb using the fingering oxx|oxoEb). The F/C key has a double tonehole to give the Oehler venting and the bell has a resonance hole in it.
But all the basic fingerings are as Boehm.
I noticed the European Union youth orchestra had both clarinettists playing Wurlitzer Reform Boehms when they did the Brahms the other night - presumably both the players were from somewhere in Benelux. Since the Freeview signal was poor I didn't get to see the Sibelius to see who was playing what.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
Post Edited (2007-08-13 18:24)
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Author: DAVE
Date: 2007-08-13 20:29
Sorry for using the phrase "very unique" in the OP. I have since learned better.P)
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Author: Alphie
Date: 2007-08-13 20:41
Why is it that Buffet or any other of the traditional French system makers haven't come out with a model with the same improvements as Wurlitzer’s? The improvements make so much sense. Does anyone know? Are there patent regulations involved or are they just being conservative or stubborn?
Alphie
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2007-08-13 20:46
> Are there patent regulations involved or are they just being conservative or
> stubborn?
Maybe just as conservative as their customers...else full-Boehms or at least 19-Keyers (sans the low Eb) were much more en vogue.
--
Ben
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Author: Old Geezer
Date: 2007-08-13 21:07
I wonder what the results of a double blind test of Boehm Reforms, German system Wurlitzers, and Buffet Boehms would be?
You can be sure that no one would be happy with the results and those whose pet theories have been rejected would'nt accept the results.
I fancy I can hear the difference beween the German sound and the French & etc. But like a lot of people I'm probably deluding myself.
Clarinet Redux
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2007-08-13 21:13
Reform Boehms have a German bore - and most German makers also make Reform Boehms as well as German Boehms which have almost the standard Boehm keywork (with the toneholes adapted to the German style bore), but again with a German bore. It's not a large market, and smaller than the Oehler system market, though an important market.
But the Boehm system is the most popular one worldwide and due to it's simplicity of design can be made VERY cheaply as we all know.
Having tried a Wurlitzer Reform Boehm several years ago, I'm still bitten by them and wouldn't mind a set.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2007-08-14 07:14
Chris,
...do you have a reference re bore sizes? I always read that the German bore is smaller (and the Viennese is bigger) than the French bore, but I haven't seen - even approximate - figures posted, or then they were somehow wrong (one guy claimed 14.6mm for Boehm, 14.8 for German and 15.0 for Austrian, but that can't be right, can it?)
--
Ben
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2007-08-14 12:12
The bore diameter is variable (from 14.6mm to over 15mm), but it's the shape of the bore that's different in German clarinets as there's a much longer cylindrical section, and it only flares out just above the lowest tonehole (French bores flare from further up the joint - above the F#/C# tonehole).
I'm not sure about the top joint if it widens on German bore clarinets as it does on French ones.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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