 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Bill
Date: 2004-12-20 19:42
Attachment: p1010003mail.jpg (22k)
I acquired an old Hawkes "Excelsior Sonorous" clarinet that came with a nice old O'Brien crystal mouthpiece. Unfortunately, the mpc. is quite literally fused (glued, cemented) to a hard rubber barrel (see photo).
After soaking both in warm soapy water, I have infused the connection between the two pieces with a standard solvent ("Bestine"). In addition, I have taken an Exacto blade around the top of the barrel tenon where the mpc. is attached. Obviously, none of the above has worked to separate the two. My next option (and, I fear, with possibly disastrous results) is to saw the barrel off just below where I guess the mpc. tenon to rest.
I'd appreciate any other suggestions. Thanks.
Bill.
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Author: Robert Moody
Date: 2004-12-20 20:06
Do I spy an empty wine bottle in the background? ![[cool]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/cool.gif)
I think you are safer to be patient and whittle away that barrel if you don't mind losing it, than most anything else. The mouthpiece itself is pretty tough concerning that kind of handling. Finding a way to wedge open the side of the wood (after removing the lower metal ring) and then splitting it off should not offer too much risk to the mouthpiece joint. I just imagine that if you are aware of any pressure building up in any single spot and you should be fine.
I, for one, would like to see the end result in a picture as well. I guess if the next picture has a couple more empty wine bottles in the background, we would have some idea of what you went through. ![[toast]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smiley15.gif)
Best of luck to you.
Robert Moody
http://www.musix4me.com
Free Clarinet Lessons and Digital Library!
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2004-12-20 20:54
Bill - I admire your devotion to recover an old ?good? O'Brien from the [Stupid?] gluing-in with the barrel . I have several O'B's, 2 with metal tenon "caps, one without. Their tenon lengths are all about 16 mm, so if you saw off the barrel, allowing 17 ?+? mm, should insure that you will not cut into the mp. As for me, I'd "go up the solvent "ladder" " to see if the adhesive would soften under solvent attack. I'll need to review what I mean[others please help] , but use first hydrocarbons, then alcohols, then ketones, then ?esters? [women's nail polish removers], there are even "stronger" ones, which might break them loose and save an old barrel. Much luck, Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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Author: idahofats
Date: 2004-12-20 22:19
Under the heading of "if all else fails." I have had good luck with VERY carefully tapping heat-fused glassware (distiller heads to condensers) against a hard countertop, just tap-tap-tapping around the circumference repeatedly, then gently pulling apart. The technique was successful when ultra-sonication and repeated cycles of heat and cold failed. Don's recommendation of solvents is assuredly preferable, but my method beats using a nutcracker, at least.
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2004-12-20 22:45
Are you absolutely certain that it is glued. Normally what happens is that some cork grease had polymerised to resemble glue, and thus attached the cork to the barrel socket. If so, there will be a tiny bit of 'give' in the cork itself.
Four suggestions.
1. Get a person with stronger hands to twist the two apart. This very rarely fails.
2. Attempt to BEND the combined pieces at the join. Hopefully you will notice a tiny parting between the two, perhaps only 0.2 mm. While bending, insert a shim of some sort- razor blade? - into this gap. Now bend the opposite way to make a gap on the opposite side. Again insert. Go back to the original shim, and bend a bit further, inserting a slightly thicker shim. Keep alternating sides, inserting thicker and thicker shims until the cork breaks free.
3. Some technicians report success by putting the item in a freezer for ten minutes and then twisting apart. Perhaps this cooling makes any bond more brittle, such that the bonding agent fractures apart. Perhaps it shrinks one part more than another to release the bond. This may work even if the joint is actually glued together.
4. Put the entire assembly in an oven and bring it up to say 130 C, and twist apart (with gloves on!). This temperature would probably be sufficient to greatly weaken most glues. I doubt that it would have a bad effect on the crystal, nor the timber. Some oil or shellac may exude from the timber, but that is not a big deal.
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Author: Vytas
Date: 2004-12-21 00:02
It's possible that the tenon on the mouthpiece was partially damaged and was glued in to prevent leakage.
Vytas Krass
Professional clarinet technician
Custom clarinet mouthpiece maker
Former professional clarinet player
Post Edited (2004-12-21 00:08)
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2004-12-21 02:18
Bill - Gordon's and Vytas' comments deserve some investigation, I'd now suggest a bright lite look at the bore around the tenon/socket junction, for further info as to "whats goin' on". Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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Author: Bill
Date: 2004-12-21 02:35
Thanks very much for your suggestions! Since the clarinet is so old, I suppose I thought that an equally old practice might have been to join a mouthpiece to a barrel - for convenience (?!).
I'll check out the mouthpiece tenon - and maybe open another bottle of that Rioja
Bill.
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Author: L. Omar Henderson
Date: 2004-12-21 02:45
If it is just glue dissolving that you need send it to me and I will dissolve it or the barrel surrounding it gratis with my arsenal of chemicals - recorking will be a must necessary item after such treatment. A great part of the BB however is listening to the great technicians impart their years of problem solving techniques and technical knowledge about instrument problems and potential fixes.
The Doctor
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Author: Brenda
Date: 2004-12-21 03:26
Great technicians imparting years of problem-solving techniques and technical knowledge? Sounds like my Dad's "between the barn and basement, something'll work" brand of technical knowledge. But you know, he fixed a lot of things, like the toaster they got for a wedding gift, 50 years and 6 new electric cords later. Mom's not exactly impressed with the esthetics of the technical knowledge, however. But if it gets results...
Keep us posted as to which of the techniques finally did the trick.
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Author: BobD
Date: 2004-12-21 13:32
"Great technicians imparting years of problem-solving techniques and technical knowledge? "
You better believe it kiddoo.........
Bob Draznik
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Author: hans
Date: 2004-12-21 14:05
"Great technicians imparting years of problem-solving techniques and technical knowledge" is one of the things that makes me a regular reader.
Hans
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2004-12-21 14:10
TKS from all of us, Doctor Omar, for offering a useful/specialized Chr gift . We all hope your Forte [ad]venture is progressing well, its perhaps quite early to inquire if you and Co. are considering "extension" to the bass clarinets? M C and H N Y . Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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Author: Bill
Date: 2004-12-22 16:18
Thank you to the "Doctor"!
I would be very glad to send these two pieces to you. And I am very glad you are continuing to offer the wonderful Gonzalez reeds (and other products).
Thanks everyone!
Bill.
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Author: L. Omar Henderson
Date: 2004-12-22 17:09
Contact me by email or just send them to the address from my web site on the sponsor's page under accessories.
The Doctor
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Author: L. Omar Henderson
Date: 2004-12-28 14:15
(Disclaimer - I am not a repair technician only a humble? chemist)
I had some thoughts about formulations to dissolve the glue holding the mouthpiece without doing the drastic steps of melting the MP. The fates were kind and both barrel and MP are now separate and happy. I hope that the repair technicians with superior knowledge will forgive this forray into their domain.
The Doctor
Post Edited (2004-12-28 14:23)
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Author: BobD
Date: 2004-12-28 14:29
Doc, you are more than a humble technician. Nice photo too.
Bob Draznik
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Author: hans
Date: 2004-12-28 14:36
Congratulations Doctor!
In the 50s there was a TV commercial that said "better living through electricity". In the 21st century that slogan should be updated to "better living through chemistry".
Hans
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2004-12-28 15:21
hans wrote:
> In the 21st century that slogan should
> be updated to "better living through chemistry".
Uh ... that was the slogan of the 60s and 70s ...
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Author: Robert Moody
Date: 2004-12-28 18:16
Now...to convince Bill, even through all of this, to sell me that O'Brien mouthpiece. ![[right]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smilie8.gif)
Robert Moody
http://www.musix4me.com
Free Clarinet Lessons and Digital Library!
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Author: L. Omar Henderson
Date: 2004-12-28 18:22
Well Bill is indeed lucky - there is a minor divot out of the glass on the bottom edge of the MP (already there prior to treatment) but I had to try play testing it (scientific curosity of course !) and wrapped it with Teflon tape where the cork used to be and decided that it is definitely a keeper!
The Doctor
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Author: ron b
Date: 2004-12-28 18:57
Good technicians are good listeners and observers, ever-willing to learn. No one among us knows it all and, if we're honest about it, we're very appreciative of one another's skills, knowledge and experience. In my book, this make Doc a first class Technician; a true listener, observer, analyzer and problem solver with a genuine love for the craft and people in general.
"Now, How'd he do that ![[whoa]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smilie10.gif) ???"
- ron b -
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2004-12-28 23:37
What technique was eventually successful, Doc, or is that a trade secret?
And were there prior techniques that in this case failed?
Post Edited (2004-12-28 23:38)
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Author: L. Omar Henderson
Date: 2004-12-29 01:08
Nothing trade secret only some obscure organic solvents not ususally found under the normal kitchen sink - the first formulation worked. It was basically a solvent mixture to dissolve super glue but works on epoxy and other similar types of glues. There are commercial formulations sold at the hardware store to do the same thing so there is little praise due for this task.
The Doctor
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Author: Bill
Date: 2004-12-29 02:44
Doctor - thank you so much for taking on his project when you are very busy with other things!
I think, in addition to my gratitude, I owe you a full bottle of wine! It's a useful chemical. I can vouche for that.
Many thanks!
Bill.
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Author: Vytas
Date: 2004-12-29 03:20
*****I hope that the repair technicians with superior knowledge will forgive this forray into their domain.*****
It was Bill's choice and knowing the situation he chose your chemical treatment. As far as getting into technician's domain is concern I'm on the same page here.
Congratulations!
I'll get you a medal. How big do you want?
Vytas Krass
Professional clarinet technician
Custom clarinet mouthpiece maker
Former professional clarinet player
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Author: L. Omar Henderson
Date: 2004-12-29 11:44
No need for medals because I believe that this falls into the category of "Luck favors those that are prepared" and in this case a little knowledge of the potential glues and the application of the right dissolving formulation the first time. If viewed in streaming video it would show the mouthpiece popping out, me bobbling it and then catching it before it crashed to the concrete garage floor! The catch might deserve a mention in the sports highlights category.
The Doctor
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Author: Avie
Date: 2004-12-29 14:23
This BB is a wonderful place to receive many possible remedies in cases of this type. I would first ask myself a few questions. Does the fused mp and barrel play well and in tune as is? If you finally suceed in freeing the MP and Barrel is it a guarantee that you can get it to play in tune? Is salvaging the mp and barrel worth the effort? You may have to buy another MP and barrel after spending the time, cost and effort to free up a setup that may end up playing out of tune. Before attempting to separate the fusion it may be a good idea to experiment with differant barrel lengths and MP's to see what works best for the particular clarinet. If all fails a new mp an barrel wouldnt be that expensive.
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Author: Avie
Date: 2004-12-29 18:43
Congradulations Doctor. I didnt didnt realize that you were successful. Good job! Hopefully it will play in tune.
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Author: Katrina
Date: 2004-12-30 00:48
Applause from here too...
I am in complete awe of the Doc's knowledge! And he doesn't need to be humble, either! 
Katrina
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Author: hartt
Date: 2004-12-30 00:54
Doctor Omar.....
"Luck favors those that are prepared" .........
is that the same as........
Luck is the residue of good planning
regards
dennis
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Author: L. Omar Henderson
Date: 2004-12-30 02:48
Well sort of! The more knowledge that we have of the variables and conditions that affect an outcome the better we can plan an approach. It is however when we do not have complete knowledge of the variables or how they interact that a planned approach falls into the "Luck" category when we somehow get the approach exactly right the first time! We may be more "Lucky" with the greater knowledge that we have and that may be "Educated Luck" but when someone puts together an approach that works without having a knowledge of the variables or their interactions and the conditions which affect the variables this could be called just "Dumb Luck". The educated thoughtful planner may have more "Luck" than the uneducated, but each situation is an experiment of one and either type of luck will suffice to bring it to a successful end. With a greater number of tries the educated thoughtful planner may succeed sooner but with only one try it can be either kind of luck!
The Doctor
Post Edited (2004-12-30 02:53)
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Author: BobD
Date: 2004-12-30 17:31
"Electricity costs less today, you know, than it did twenty-five years ago"...Little Bill......from the 50s
Bob Draznik
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Author: Jazz3774
Date: 2005-01-07 18:49
Doctor Omar,
I read this thread and I applaud your chemistry skills and clarinet knowledge, helping us all woodwind players with your excellent products.
I have a similar "fusion" problem with one of my clarinets and hope you can give me some advise:
About two weeks ago I had my local woodwind tech overhaul one of my old clarinets (very old). When I got home, I played the horn for about an hour (it plays very good) then left it on the clarinet stand overnight.
The following day in the eve I played it a bit more. Then I went to take it apart and is welded shut. I cannot separate the tenons. The wood probably swelled due to the warmer temperatures and my basement heater.
I called my tech and he suggested to wait until the weather gets colder and the wood shrinks; this probably won't happen for another week or more. (On top of that my tech is going away for 2 months,...snowbird)
I don't want to wait that long for the weather change and of course I don't want to damage the clarinet. Any suggestions?
Your help is appreciated.
Leo
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2005-01-08 00:36
The example in this thread was a case where there was a good chance that the items had been GLUED together.
This is not the case for you. A stronger person, who is careful to hold the instrument where damage will not occur, will be able to twist the joints apart.
Stopping the problem form recurring could involve a regime of oiling the bore, or getting the fit of the joints adjusted to suit your climate.
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Author: John Stackpole
Date: 2005-01-08 00:42
Could you stick the instrument in the refrigerator for a while?
Or would this be a high risk operation?
JDS
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2005-01-08 10:38
Some technicians have reported putting an instrument in a freezer for 10 minutes, and claim that it works.
I can see little reason why it should work. It is moisture content, not temperature, that has the most effect on the dimensions of timber. IMHO 10 minutes is nowhere near long enough for the moisture content of the timber to be altered significantly.
There are a range of things that could potentially happen by relatively sudden temperature changes, e.g. splitting, or shellac glue becoming more brittle and failure for corks, pads, octave & thumb key vents, or body rings. Therefore I am not prepared to risk the procedure myself.
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Author: HedgeWitch
Date: 2005-01-08 12:53
It really does pay to keep those babies swabbed and in their cases when we've finished with them I guess. I'm not a fan of stands.
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