 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: clarinetist04
Date: 2004-12-16 01:20
I'm sure this is another post (and if you can provide a link then please do!), but what would you suggest to someone who has a double-lip embouchure that doesn't produce a good sound. She's a freshman in high school and she doesn't really get that great of a sound out. I think this is the reason, as I have watched her and she seems to have good technique and all that jazz, but this embouchure is enough to drive me crazy! Thanks for the help!
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Author: BobD
Date: 2004-12-16 10:41
So....you're blaming double-lip per se?
Bob Draznik
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Author: Brenda
Date: 2004-12-16 14:02
Exactly, I'm wondering if it's the embouchure or in this case, a worn-out or too-soft reed, or a bummer mouthpiece. The double-lip is used to remedy the embouchure and the inside shape of the mouth and should help a lot to provide a great sound. It would be interesting to have her play on an instrument that sounds good when someone else plays it and see if she has the same sound - OR, have someone else use her equipment including the mouthpiece and reed - cleaned before and after - to see if it's the equipment or if it's her.
This would be a chance for you to speak with the band director to see if he/she suggests that you speak with her or not, to provide some gentle suggestions. That could put you in a difficult position with this student so maybe you'd have to just live with it until the band director decides to speak with her.
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Author: clarinetist04
Date: 2004-12-16 14:18
exactly what I was thinking. No, I'm not blaming the double lip embouchure "per se", but I do think that it is a good, better than good, possibility. But thank you for the suggestions, Brenda. I am not familiar with this embouchure style, as my knowledge of it extends to the fact that Stoltzman uses it. That's it! I never had this/used this/how ever you want to put it. Thanks and I will ask the band director.
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2004-12-16 14:19
Why not just go back and forth between single and double, as what you/she are playing may suggest? I do so, partic on bass cl mps, and use a thin clear-plastic mp cushion to reduce the sound conduction to my teeth. Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2004-12-16 16:20
Is it possible that she has developed a 'bad' double lip embouchure? I'm thinking that just because she has a lip on the bottom and a lip on the top, it doesn't mean that she should automatically sound good. Perhaps she still needs more embouchure training and is using it incorrectly.
Alexi
US Army Japan Band
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Author: Ron
Date: 2004-12-25 22:12
Hi,
I played double lip starting at age 10 with my first teacher, James Collis. Then as a young adult in the late '60s, I studied with Gino B. Cioffi, the legendary principal clarinetist with the Boston Symphony Orchestra. Mr. Cioffi played double lip also. Playing double lip is not an easy thing to do. It requires a mouthpiece that will play easily on a reed that is not hard. For example, I played on VanDoren 3's (nothing harder); at the time, I played on a Van Doren 5RV mouthpiece. This, of course, is not a recommendation. Today I play on a Greg Smith mouthpiece and play single lip.
Back to double lip: having the proper mouthpiece/reed combination is not the final answer. Playing double lip requires great patience to build the muscle strength needed so that one DOES NOT PINCH, and to support the tone especially in the upper register. This is no easy task.
Also, the correct embouchure must be utilized and experimented with to suit an individuals unique anatomy. For this your friend needs a teacher who can observe and possible correct any bad habits that the young lady has.
One day I may go back to playing double lip because of the georgous tone that one can produce. Mr. Cioffi used to say that the tone must sound "like a bell" and have a "center." I occasionally play double lip to strengthen my lip and get embouchure correctly established.
Good luck to your friend.
Ron
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Author: CPW
Date: 2004-12-26 01:29
I use DL and do so with #4s, no problem, even standing with no strap.
I suspect the problem with the student is elsewhere...eg breath support, neck constriction, poor reed selection and balance, or warped mpc.
Let her try your horn (germs are on vacation during xmas-New Year)
or a thick mpc patch like a Runyon....see what happens.
If all else fails, there are the words of that famous olympic coach who once told a student "Take up bowling instead" (j/k)
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Author: BobD
Date: 2004-12-27 14:10
"I use DL and do so with #4s, no problem, even standing with no strap."
Could make an interesting commercial.....
Bob Draznik
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Author: Brenda Siewert
Date: 2004-12-27 14:31
I've used double-lip for years now and think I have a much better tone than with the tooth-biting-the-mouthpiece kind. It does take practice to perfect, however. Also, give the student a choice on strength of reeds. Swap them around from a 2 1/2 to a 3 1/2 and see what happens. Also, I recommend a good fabric ligature such as the BG Super Revelation for this style embouchure.
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2004-12-27 15:13
Have you checked the student's setup? It may be something as simple as a mouthpiece with a ding at the corner, or full of crud, or a reed she's been playing for months.
Put your mouthpiece on her clarinet to check if it plays. Have her try a new reed. Clean out her mouthpiece and put it on your clarinet with your reed to see if there's a problem.
There's far too much fear about disease. If you can breathe the same air as someone else, you can try someone else's clarinet, mouthpiece and reed. You've both been vaccinated for tetanus. Go ahead and play her setup. It's the only sure way to find out what the problem is.
Like the other double lip players, I can assure you that the style of embouchure is not the problem. It's neither the cause nor the cure.
Ken Shaw
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Author: allencole
Date: 2004-12-27 15:46
We may be looking at this the wrong way. If this student has not had previous instruction, then double-lipping is not an issue of cause or cure. In fact, I wonder whether it was actually *taught* to her. It is most likely a symptom of overall physical slackness with the instrument. The clarinet when equipped with stock mpc and #1.5 or 2 reed, is one of the least physically demanding instruments around, and band students can go all he way through middle school with little or no muscle tone developed. Plus, a failure to increase reed strength as the student develops may actually lead them to double-lip (possibly in a corrupted form) even if initially taught single-lip.
I would like to know how this student's lower lip and facial muscles are doing. How about her breath support? I've seen high school freshmen using #2 reeds, and blowing the clarinet using both teeth-over-upper-lip, and with a very loose pucker on the lower lip. Such students can have good rhythm and technique, but may be unable to play to the top of their second register. As with the physicial slackness that all this implies, I will frequently hear that they do not practice on their high notes because they "don't like how it sounds."
Because of the nature of middle school band in many areas, coupled with a lack of early private instruction, or of personal initiative, many of the clarinet's necessities can be deferred until they reach critical mass. I've had many a high school freshman who needed to rebuild both embouchure and technique. Their previous circumstances had never demanded it.
Allen Cole
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