 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Bill
Date: 2004-12-24 21:15
I submit this question with humility. Though I am taking lessons for the first time in my life, I did not study clarinet throughout my life, and many very basic concepts elude me.
I own Selmer L29x (yes, just three digits!), beautifully restored. But, the throat tones on this clarinet are so sharp, so wild, that I am now considering parting with the instrument.
When I assemble the clarinet and compare it with my other Bb clarinets, it is the same height (length) as all the others, give or take a millimeter. Yet the barrel for the instrument is only about 63 or 64 mm. I cannot say for certain this is the barrel supplied with the clarinet when it rolled off the assembly line in 1931, but every indication (appearance, signage, etc.) seems to support that. And with this barrel, the clarinet's overall length is "standard." The upper joint extends higher than other instruments.
I obtained from Mr. Muncy about four rubber tuning rings that, used all together on the barrel socket and mouthpiece tenon, bring these throat tones into an (almost) acceptable tuning range. Yet, in so doing, I am extending the overall (total) length of this Bb clarinet by approximately 6 mm. Uh, vy so doing aren't I turning the instrument into another category of clarinet - for instance, an "A" clarinet?!
How far can I elongate my Herbert Hoover Selmer before I am interfering with the basic length requirement of a Bb clarinet?
I wonder why Selmer made this design decision with the very early L series (the tone holes are the diameter of coffee cup saucers). My M and N series Selmers are different animals altogether, with 66-mm barrels and no throat tone problems.
Without the tuning rings, I find the throat tones of this clarinet impossible to play in tune (and I play a 1010 as well, so you know I have a wide tolerance). My jaw simply does not slacken that much!!!!!!
Suggestions/comments appreciated!
Bill.
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Author: jbutler ★2017
Date: 2004-12-24 22:39
Bill,
This is not an uncommon complaint for the early "L" Selmers. Playing a mouthpiece from the period helps a lot. I find the older Brilhart Tonalin mouthpieces work well with these older Selmers. Selmer did supply these with a 66mm barrel (as per Ralph Morgan), so your barrel has either been cut down or not the original. Have you tried your N or M series barrel on the L?
jbutler
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Author: Vytas
Date: 2004-12-24 22:39
L-series instruments up to the serial number 3500 had no model name and above that number they were marked BT (Balanced Tone). BTs extended to the M-series approximately up to the serial #5000.
If I remember correct pre BT L-series instruments have shared post for the throat A/G# and BT with serial number ~3500 have separate posts for the A/G#.
Every single L-series instrument I worked on had unacceptable intonation (ok, to my standards). It is possible to correct this problem by making/choosing a mouthpiece and the barrel (66mm) but I personally wouldn't bother. Actually, I stopped working on these horns just because of this reason. M-series BTs have much better intonation than the L-series clarinets.
M-series starting approximately #5000 have no name and extends to N-series up to the serial number ~N7250. Above this number clarinets are marked Centered Tone. 'M' and 'N' (no name) series clarinets have huge register vent with two little holes in it for the special key to unscrew this vent. This huge vent helps to clear throat Bb.
IMO N-series (no name) clarinets are fine players a lot better than 'L' (no name) and L-series 'BT' clarinets.
If I had to choose a Jazz horn it would be Selmer Series 9 (no star) or P-series Selmer CT.
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Author: Douglas
Date: 2004-12-24 23:42
Throat tones do not overblow to upper register notes, so therefore, can be easily tuned as individual notes. Keys are taken off, the tone hole lined (adhesive tape can be used or a tuning liquid available from repair supply houses) and after experimentation, the throat note tuning can be adjusted to where ever the player wants the pitch.
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Author: Vytas
Date: 2004-12-25 00:11
******Throat tones do not overblow to upper register notes, so therefore, can be easily tuned as individual notes. Keys are taken off, the tone hole lined (adhesive tape can be used or a tuning liquid available from repair supply houses) and after experimentation, the throat note tuning can be adjusted to where ever the player wants the pitch.******
Yes, but before you decide on this procedure you must choose correct length of the barrel (clue - 66mm). You can't just use any barrel! You want the barrel that matches the bore. Then you want to find the mouthpiece that matches the total volume for particular bore. And then only then, if the problem still exists, you want to decide on tuning these notes.
Also you have to remember that each time you pull the barrel you lower your throat tones. I would try to bring the throat tones down with the 68mm long barrel and check if the 'C' is in tune. You might get lucky.
Vytas Krass
Professional clarinet technician
Custom clarinet mouthpiece maker
Former professional clarinet player
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Author: Bill
Date: 2004-12-25 00:32
Thanks guys! I think my question, stated in a very simple way, is "Am I making a B-flat clarinet *too long* by adding the (approx.) 6 mm to its total length needed in order to bring the throat tones in tune?
Thanks!
Bill.
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Author: Vytas
Date: 2004-12-25 01:16
*****"Am I making a B-flat clarinet *too long* by adding the (approx.) 6 mm to its total length needed in order to bring the throat tones in tune?*****
Bill,
Unless you state the length of the barrel this number is meaningless.
Just like Mr. Butler and I already suggested the correct length barrel for this clarinet is 66mm.
If you pull 66mm long barrel 6mm, then yes! you'll have a tuning nightmare.
If the barrel is 63mm long you're fine (tuning rings are recommended) because you're actually puling only 3mm and this is acceptable.
Vytas Krass
Professional clarinet technician
Custom clarinet mouthpiece maker
Former professional clarinet player
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Author: jbutler ★2017
Date: 2004-12-25 13:48
Bill,
Mr. Krass offers very good advice on the matter!
I also agree with him about the "N" series clarinets. I've always thought them to be better clarinets than the "BT's" although the "BT's" have a following because Benny Goodman promoted them.
As questioned earlier, have you tried your "M" or "N" series barrels on the "L"? It could help you out quite a bit. Also, try finding a vintage HS* or Brilhart Tonalin (you'll pay dearly for a good one) mouthpiece. It may take awhile to come up with the right combination, but it can be done with patience. I had a custom barrel made for a BT "L" series instrument that helped immensley. I sold the clarinet because I was never happy with the intonation, although I loved the sound.
jbutler
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Author: Bill
Date: 2004-12-26 00:01
OK, well, at the risk of drawing wrath, or ridicule, I will restate what was my original question. This is why I prefaced my remarks "with humility."
The total length of the Selmer I have is 59.75 cm, including a barrel that is 63 mm long. Give or take a little bit, with this short barrel and elongated upper joint it is the "average" total length for a B-flat clarinet (based on my measurements of other B-flat clarinets).
OK, now, here is the crux of my question: In order to play the throat tones in tune, I must add approx. 8 mm to the total length of the clarinet (this extra length is added at the barrel and mouthpiece area).
I am now playing a B-flat clarinet that is 8 mm *longer* than all my other B-flat clarinets. I am playing a clarinet that is, in my opinion, substantially elongated (by 8 mm).
My question: Is that OK? Am I still playing a B-flat clarinet, or, by adding 8 mm to its total length, am I making the instrument *too long*?
Bill.
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2004-12-26 00:10
Bill,
Does the rest of the clarinet tune correctly once you've added those tuning rings? I wouldn't focus on the length of the clarinet but rather the overall tuning. I recall my friends German clarinet which is about an inch and a half shorter than mine, yet still plays in tune. So overall length really is not that much of a significance.
Basically, if you make the change to tune your throat tones, does the rest of the clarinet get thrown out of wack or not? THAT'S the real question.
If so, like Douglas said above, find a barrel that makes the REST of the clarinet in tune, and then have a good tech look it over and see if he can get the throat tones in tune. There are wonders that can be worked with tone hole modification if you find a good guy. And since you don't have to worry about an overtone being in tune (Like Douglas said), they can pretty much do any combination of filling in/widening/under/overcutting a throat tone hole as necessary.
Alexi
US Army Japan Band
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Author: Bill
Date: 2004-12-26 00:14
Thanks, Alexi! I need to check the remainder of the range with a tuner. My question was basic - how long (or short) is a B-flat clarinet? From what you said, there is a wider range than I would have thought.
I appreciate everyone's great suggestions! Thanks and Merry Christmas!
Bill.
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Author: jbutler ★2017
Date: 2004-12-26 00:49
Length is determined by bore diameter therefore clarinets are not of equal length, but close.
jbutler
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Author: Vytas
Date: 2004-12-26 02:40
Bill,
I knew it was coming! I just wanted for the third time (first was about MP facing) to show you that numbers are meaningless unless they have the substance behind them.
You've very legitimate questions that only the person with curious and analytical mind would ask.
1. NO, you aren't turning the instrument into another category of clarinet - for instance, an "A" clarinet.
2. Forget the average length of Bb clarinet. The number alone is meaningless (again). It all depends on (like Mr. Butler suggested) the size of the bore and (I would add) the type/design of the bore. Believe it or not, two hundreds of the millimeter will affect the total length of the instrument. (If you tried to build one)
There are two basic bore designs; bore dominated and tone hole dominated.
So called big bore with no undercutting clarinets belong to the bore dominated design. Buffet - tone hole dominated.
Please take my advice above (the 5th post) OR next time you're at the risk of ridicule. Ha-Ha!
Vytas Krass
Professional clarinet technician
Custom clarinet mouthpiece maker
Former professional clarinet player
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Author: Bill
Date: 2005-02-05 17:08
Update! Today I sat with the tuner and a 66-mm barrel on my (early) L series Selmer. Shocked to find she still tunes a few cents sharp even *with* the 66 barrel. But I was glad to discover that the tuning is not out of proportion acrossthe scale - it tunes evenly with the 66 barrel, and with a ring or pulled out a bit, I may yet be dead on.
So my story ends well, and my old Selmer stays with me. It's got a rich, strong, clear sound - different than my N series.
Bill.
Note: I'm using a (marked) "table HS" Selmer mpc. - one the oldies with the logo on the bottom. It doesn't tune well at all with other mpcs.
Bill Fogle
Ellsworth, Maine
(formerly Washington, DC)
Post Edited (2005-02-05 17:48)
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2005-02-05 17:41
Bill - You have been fortunate in attracting the attention of several "honest to God" experts on cls in general and Selmers in particular. I chime in with my L1206 [1932] Sel Full Boehm which has a 66 mm barrel, dern sure its original since it has a metal sleeve in the barrel and a "cutout " in the top 1" of the UJ bore to accommodate the tube's thickness, Ever seen one like it, fellas ??. It plays a "reasonable 440/435?" .I was going to suggest playing against a tuner at 440-2 to see what you need for "modern playing". YES, Vytas, my P CT is my best Sel, my recent Omega [US, but looks/plays French and diff. !!], is V G also. Fun, Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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Author: nickma
Date: 2005-02-05 18:00
If you've now only got a few throat notes that are slightly sharp wiht the rest OK, try adjusting the cork on the A and register keys, so that when open, they are nearer the outside edges of the toneholes.
In the case of the register vent, you can set the distance pretty close without loss of sound: it varies but 2 mm should be fine on most clarinets.
This will flatten the throat notes by a few cents.
Nick
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