 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: nickma
Date: 2004-12-16 20:00
Anyone ever heard of it?
Nick
Post Edited (2004-12-17 22:01)
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Author: Vytas
Date: 2004-12-18 16:12
Is there 'Model 1 D' actually written on the instrument. Where was it made in France or Germany? Is it a pro instrument?
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Author: nickma
Date: 2004-12-18 16:39
No, just like the R13 there's nothing on the clarinet to suggest that it's anything other than an R13! Except its not.
I have tons more info since this posting:
It's an F series made for European market F77XXX, so dated to 1963.
The Buffet factory traced the model based on the serial number. Their comments are that it's the 'ancestor' of the 1147, AKA....RC Prestige.
The factory calls it a Model 1 D 'avec complication', referring to the articluated G#/C#, which was a factory option.
It came with a short 63 mm barrel, presumably to tune to a=442/444. This plays VERY sharp. With an RC Prestige 67mm barrel is brings it back into line, though there are some wayward notes, notably top C (flat) and upper register d and e. The throat notes are excellent, as are the C to G range in the chalumeau. Bottom E etc are rather flat, but I gather that's not uncommon.
However, the bore size of the clarinet is wider than current RC and other Buffet models. VERY wide in fact, touching 15mm. As a result, the RC barrel may be reamed out a shade to help intonation.
Nick
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Author: Synonymous Botch
Date: 2004-12-18 18:57
It sounds like the current Yamaha experiment...
Smaller chamber mouthpieces on a larger bore will spread the notes, widely.
There was once a market to ream out 'modern' mouthpieces to fit the large bore Boosey clarinets, for the same reason.
I wonder if this would play better with a Pillinger made to large bore spec?
Any pics to share?
How does this sound, to your ear?
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Author: Vytas
Date: 2004-12-18 19:34
The diffidence between the R-13 and the R-13 (F) made for European market is the length of the barrel. It has nothing to do with the bore size. I believe someone re-bored this instrument for whatever reason. The '1 D' is not a model name it just refers to the articulated G#/C# factory option.
Vytas Krass
Professional clarinet technician
Custom clarinet mouthpiece maker
Former professional clarinet player
Post Edited (2004-12-18 19:53)
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Author: GBK
Date: 2004-12-18 21:34
Vytas wrote:
> The diffidence between the R-13 and the R-13 (F) made for
> European market is the length of the barrel.
Besides the length of the barrels, isn't the placement of the register vent different on the two models? ...GBK
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Author: Vytas
Date: 2004-12-18 21:48
*****"Isn't the placement of the register vent different on the two models? ...GBK"*****
NO!
Vytas Krass
Professional clarinet technician
Custom clarinet mouthpiece maker
Former professional clarinet player
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Author: GBK
Date: 2004-12-18 22:03
Vytas... Having never played an F series Buffet, what is the length of the factory supplied barrel with the F series R-13 Bb clarinets? 63mm? 64mm?
If so, isn't it then simply a matter of then substituting a longer (67mm?) barrel to bring the pitch down to A=440, or are there other manufacturing differences (eg: the overall length of the body) in the F series? ...GBK
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2004-12-18 22:16
I would have also thought that the tone holes would be slightly closer together on the higher tuned instrument (although since it is only off by two hertz, maybe not noticeably or not 'fixably' so)
Alexi
US Army Japan Band
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Author: nickma
Date: 2004-12-18 23:30
There are other differences between the 1 D and the R13, as there are with the R13 and current RC. I suspect that the top join thas two tapers rather than three.
Sound wise, the clarinet is quite forthright. It is very open. It doesn't seem to me to have quite the sweetness of an R13, certainly those I have played from the 70s, but is has great depth of sound.
The clarinet is at Howarths in London to ream a new 67mm barrel (RC) to fit the bore better. When I get it back later on in the week, I'll post some images as requested.
GBK - I think that there are other differences beyond barrel length, which is why a longer barrel per se creates soem anomalies with a small handful of notes. I'm hoping that the bore characteristics of the barrel can be adapted to tame these to a degree.
Vytas - huge thanks for this info. Promise I'll come back with more data as soon as I have it.
Nick
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Author: madvax
Date: 2004-12-19 00:00
I recently sold one of these clarinets. It was an excellent player with very good projection, that nice R-13 sound, and the intonation was fine. It had a 66mm barrel on it.
As was pointed out, the throat tones were very good, including the Bb.
I've come across three of these F series Buffets, and all were as nice or better players than other non-F series R-13's (IMHO).
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Author: Vytas
Date: 2004-12-19 00:17
Several F series R-13 Bb clarinets I worked on had 64mm long barrels. All other dimensions were the same as in the regular R-13 series.
The R-13 'Vintage' has longer body and the register tube is 2mm higher.
Buffet says:
"In creating the Vintage clarinet, Buffet Crampon especially wanted to satisfy those musicians who wish to find the same features and sound they had with their 1950's R13 clarinet"
What a joke! What the same features? It's not even R-13 anymore.
____________________________________________________________
Similar questions comparing the F series and the regular series were answered by Mr. F. Kloc and it supports my own findings.
Question:
1. How is the different pitch (440/442) reached? Only by length of the barrel, or are there also other differences?
2. Is the letter (A or F) in front of the serial number equivalent to the pitch, i.e. A=440, F=442?
Mr. Kloc's answer:
1) Just with the barrel length
2) Yes
____________________________________________________________
BTW. Sfalexi's making a lot of sense. This thing is called the scale length. All tuning problems we have with an R-13 are because of it. Believe or not an R-13 has the French scale. You can basically get away by puling 64mm long barrel about 4mm on the French scale. With a 66mm barrel you can pull it only 2mm. More means - tuning nightmare.
And please! There's no such thing as "Model 1 D"
Vytas Krass
Professional clarinet technician
Custom clarinet mouthpiece maker
Former professional clarinet player
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Author: Vytas
Date: 2004-12-19 01:19
nickma,
The reason I've asked about 'D 1' marking on the clarinet is this. Not so long ago I saw the R-13 that was marked 'KO' just below the logo on the UJ. My first impression was that this marking stands for the model I never heard of but later I realized that this marking was Kalmen Opperman's creation. So I kinda assumed that the model you've mention has something to do with this. But there's no such marking. The clarinet you've mentioned is an R-13 that somebody tampered with the bore. In the 1960's a lot of players still liked big bore Selmers and this crazy type of action was known back then.
Vytas Krass
Professional clarinet technician
Custom clarinet mouthpiece maker
Former professional clarinet player
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Author: nickma
Date: 2004-12-19 08:18
Vytas
What would be the signs, if any, of a widened bore? I'm guessing that we'd be talking about reaming out no more than 0.3mm if it had been done. Certainly the bore looks in good shape. Would this have been done to both joints or just the upper one?
What Madvax says makes since, this F has great projection, is fuller bodied than post 200XXX R13s, and has decent throat notes with a longer barrel (67mm). It also has a very good altissimo range. It's the upper octave range that's a but iffy. Would this be consistent with a reamed bore?
Also, would intonation on the throat notes etc be decent if it had been reamed? Surely it would screw them all up?
Interesting about The Vintage model being longer bodied - the lower joint on this is so long that is won't fit most cases, I guess due to the metal top socket of the lower joint and the positioning of the articulated G#/C# hole.
Nick
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Author: nickma
Date: 2004-12-20 11:32
Panic over! the top flare of the UJ is 15.1mm, but the middle measurement is 14.62mm, so firmly in small bore territory.
The view is that the UJ top flare will widen with use over the years, and this seems to have happened in this instance.
The characteristics of the clarinet appear to closely resemble the BC20, and the 1963 manufacture date ties in with the launch of that model.
Nick
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Author: Vytas
Date: 2004-12-20 14:02
Can you just accept the fact that this clarinet has the reworked bore? Bore doesn't shrink this way ever. If something like this happened it would affect the entire bore not jus part of it. 15.01 mm is just absolutely wrong size for the Buffet bore. IMO. You are in luck! It would be a lot worse if someone rebored entire bore. Now what you have are enlarged cylinders or someone tried to copy Selmer Series 9* bore which is a reverse cone. Larger (about 15.00mm) on the top and smaller on the bottom of the UJ.
Vytas Krass
Professional clarinet technician
Custom clarinet mouthpiece maker
Former professional clarinet player
Post Edited (2004-12-20 18:20)
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2004-12-20 17:43
Vytas -
Kal has told me that there are a lot of R-13s out there on which people have put his mark, in an effort to sell them for more money.
My Oppermanized clarinets (dating from the mid-1970s) have simply the letter "O."
The only Opperman item I have ever seen stamped "KO" is his mouthpiece model with a moderately open facing. If the instrument you saw is stamped "KO," I doubt that it's one of Kal's.
Steve Hartman will also know a lot about this.
Ken Shaw
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Author: Vytas
Date: 2004-12-20 18:43
Ken,
It's quite possible. I saw the R13 with this marking on eBay about a year ago. The seller did not mention this marking at all and when asked did not know what it was. I just assumed it was Mr. Operrman's initials.
Vytas
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