 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Sylvain
Date: 2004-12-17 16:08
Hi All,
I have been the proud owner of a buffet RC prestige GL for just about 10 years now. I bouhg tit when I lived in France and it has the letter F in front of the serial number. My understanding is that it is pitched at A=442 with a 66mm barrell and 444 with a 65mm barrell.
I have been very happy with it and even though I have to fight a little bit with intonation, it has not been a problem in wind ensembles and orchestras. However, when I play with a piano strictly tuned at 440hz,. I face the impossible task of playing in tune. I have used a 66mm barrell with a 1mm tunign ring, pulled in the middle, at the bell and still am incredibly sharp.
I am playing more and more chanber music and I would love to be able to play in tune!
I am definitely responsible for some of the intonation problems, but I feel my instrument is not helping much...
Here is my question:
Do you think there is a tech who can definitely help me lower the picth of the instrument with some tone hole work, a new barrell (I am using standard buffet with a 13 series mouthpiece)?
Who is this magician?
Should I just forget about it and buy a new horn?
Thank you,
-Sylvain
--
Sylvain Bouix <sbouix@gmail.com>
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Author: ron b
Date: 2004-12-17 18:32
Whoa, Sylvain!
Look before you leap. Are you *Sure* the Piano is properly tuned?
I'd check that first. After all, you've had no problem with orchestras and ensembles.
Then, if your instrument is truly the problem, rather than invest lots and possibly bundles of money on tone hole work and stuff like that which may or may not help, I'd start at the mouthpiece and work down. Tonehole work could easily add up to more than another nicer and in-tune instrument would cost. Different brands and strengths of reed, mouthpiece, barrel would be about as far as most thoughtful folks would recommend and a whole lot less expensive than altering tone holes. At least, that's what I believe.
If your instrumet really is that far off and can't be brought down to pitch by pulling the barrel, I'd suggest a different instrument.
- r![[cool]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/cool.gif) n b -
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Author: donald
Date: 2004-12-17 19:41
hmmmm having taught students with the "F" before their serial number, and having also had to play with a A=445 piano (in Germany, on my A440-ish clarinet- the opposite problem) i really sympathise with you! Francois Kloc is down on record as saying that the higher pitch instruments are in fact exactly the same as the 440 ones, only supplied with a shorter barrel. I guess i have to believe him, but experience has suggested otherwise....
however,
i know plenty of players who play sharp with 660mm barrels etc (i'm certainly not imune). The people i know who seem to have very stable intonation also seem not to have a lot of tension in their throat.... the "pressure" comes from the diaphram, the "focus" comes from the tongue position but they're not trying to "squeaze" the air (and/or makes the brightness in the sound) in their throat.
this may not at all be what is causing your problem- but maybe you could use another clarinet for a week and see if you end up with similar intonation problems?
otherwise, there are barrel/mouthpiece combinations that will lower your overall pitch but they will also affect the ratio of your 12ths.
hope that this was helpful
donald
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Author: Brenda
Date: 2004-12-17 20:36
This is why a A=440 tuning fork sits in my case underneath the cork grease and metronome (along with a tuner in the travel case).
I thought at one point that my tuner wasn't registering right until the tuning fork proved it was bang on. Funny how that happens, sort of like the metronome changing speed on you in the middle of your piece!
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Author: Rivers
Date: 2004-12-17 21:01
Try a Gigliotti mouthpiece. I had the same problem on my R-13 always 10-15 cents sharp no matter what mouthpiece I used. I tried a Gigliotti #2 and it brought the pitch down to where it should be.
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Author: Sylvain
Date: 2004-12-17 21:17
My A is an RC bought in Canada which plays much closer to A=440 than my Bb. I use the same mouthpiece for both horn. With the A I go sharp when things get warm and I don't pay attention to what I'm doing. With Bb I am sharp when I get the horn out of the case!
I have played a few different mouthpieces (B45, Selmer C115) and now play M15 13 series which helped me quite a bit to lower the pitch.
Listen:
Bb:
66mm with 1mm tuning ring, a god 2mm at the middle and 1 mm at the bell. Jaw dropped to the floor.
http://lmi.bwh.harvard.edu/~sylvain/Music/Rota-2.mp3
A:
65mm not pulled. (I'm sharp but still):
http://lmi.bwh.harvard.edu/~sylvain/Music/Brahms-mit-3.mp3
So buy new or overhaul?
-S
--
Sylvain Bouix <sbouix@gmail.com>
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Author: nickma
Date: 2004-12-17 21:59
I have ascertained that my Model 1 D, made in the 60s, is the ancestor of the RC prestige, and intonation issues are not dissimilar. I'm convinced that the pitch isn't hugely different from a=440, as a barrel length of 66mm helps a lot. But mouthpiece seems to make a big difference, as does barrel design.
The upper joint of this Buffet design may have a dual taper in the bore, rather than the R13's three tapers (apparently). Perhaps this means R13 barrels are not ideal matches?
I'd experiment with barrels, as different internal bore designs will have an impact, and avoid larger bore mouthpieces, which seem to make mine less couth.
If more modern RCs are similar to the 'ancestor', then the sound is incredibly forthright: I wonder if its character is best suited to chamber ensembles?
Nick
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2004-12-17 23:15
Sylvain, perhaps you are simply playing in a room that is too warm.
That will dramatically sharpen the pitch of your clarinet, but barely alter the pitch of the piano.
If you decide to buy new, then you definitely need to test the new one in the same playing situation before paying! It may be no better; it may be worse!
Post Edited (2004-12-17 23:17)
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Author: frank
Date: 2004-12-18 06:02
I would buy a new horn... assuming that you are playing on a 66mm barrel and the M15-13 series without biting or pinching the reed. Your playing in the sound samples is very sharp in relation to the other instruments. The RC with the "F" may have been tuned at a higher pitch. I firmly believe in not fighting equipment. Sell, sell, sell!
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2004-12-18 08:16
It seems, according to my calibrated Korg AT-12 tuner, in the first sample, some notes are 5 to 20 centimes sharp, but others are actually up to 15 centimes flat.
This would be fairly normal for a clarinet being played pulled out in an over-warm room.
Perhaps the temperature, in the location where you play with the piano, is higher than it is where you play wind ensembles and orchestras. Do some testing.
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Author: Sylvain
Date: 2004-12-18 15:24
Thanks for all your comments. It seems I have to do some serious testing before making a decision. Although what I gather is that it is probably a better idea to buy new than to have a tec spend lots of time trying to get my horn to work if there is indeed a problem with it. Now here is the next question if I need to buy a new instrument and live in Boston where should I go?
-S
--
Sylvain Bouix <sbouix@gmail.com>
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Author: Synonymous Botch
Date: 2004-12-18 19:00
I wonder if Stephen Fox over in Toronto could help?
The guy is something of a mechanical genius - and won't dance around the subject. If you're serious about buying a new instrument, perhaps he could help there, too.
I believe he's teaching throught the Winter, but an email will sort this out.
http://www.sfoxclarinets.com/
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Author: Sylvain
Date: 2004-12-19 21:09
So I did a lot of experimenting today and here is what I found.
Material:
Vandoren M15 13.
66mm barrel by P. Spriggs (Moennig style).
RC Prestige GL (serial F397271)
Room temperature ~74F (~23C)
I warmed up, practiced for about 45 mn. Played some Rose 40 etudes book 1 and check the pitch randomly throuhout the different pieces. I calibrated my tuner to A=444Hz and the horn plays nicely in tune. Some throat notes are sharp, so is middle C, low F is flat but these are common "bad" notes and I can bring them easily to pitch. I even have nice 12th!
Unfortunately, when I start pulling to get to to A=440, everything gets out of whack :(
I sent email to Guy Chadash and we will see what he says. I should also contact Stephen Fox as S.B suggested.
What do you all think?
-S
--
Sylvain Bouix <sbouix@gmail.com>
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Author: Fred
Date: 2004-12-19 22:46
Well . . . the guys you've contacted can speak with authority about what they can and cannot do. Since you're at overhaul time, I think you should hear what they have to say and then decide. However, with so many R13's around (new and used) for not much $$, I think you should set a mental dollar limit for how much you could justifiably sink into your RC. If their price exceeds that limit, I think you should sell it and move on. The modification and overhaul might be viewed as "experimental treatment", and thus somewhat of a gamble. But with the gentlemen you have mentioned, I'm sure they can give you a pretty good idea of what you can expect.
FWIW, I also own one F-numbered Buffet. It plays reasonably in tune, but not as well as my '66 R13. I'm playing a Morgan mouthpiece on it, which IMO plays a bit flatter than most mp's I've tried. It is, however, a wonderfully expressive mouthpiece, and it seems to counteract some of the sharp tendencies of my F-series. I usually play pushed in all the way at the 65.5mm barrel and pulled out about 1mm between the joints. Low D and E do play flat.
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