 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: GBK
Date: 2004-12-12 02:34
[ DO NOT ever remove or re-edit any moderator comments or suggestions - GBK ]
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Author: claclaws
Date: 2004-12-12 05:17
What an interesting article.
Julliard clarinetist becomes diamond grader at Tiffany's..
Lucy Lee Jang
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Author: msloss
Date: 2004-12-12 13:41
And how many undergrad majors in other fields actually get work in their chosen realm? I know PhD particle physicists who work on Wall Street, and music majors working for the Massachussetts Supreme Judicial. I went to school with a guy who did pre-law and is now a recording artist with multiple albums out.
Reality deals you a hand. How you play it is entirely up to you.
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2004-12-12 14:00
I once heard that NOWADAYS the act of getting a degree is more looked upon by employers as "willingness to dedicate themselves and work hard at something" rather than WHAT they got a degree in.
As Mark pointed out above, there are TONS of examples of people who have degrees in one field but work in a non-related field. Maybe they couldn't get work in their field, maybe they find pleasure and happiness in an unrelated field, maybe they found one pays more, or maybe they're just better at it.
We've seen examples here on the BB with other degrees turned clarinetists (the young teenage girl who will be getting her doctorate's soon in physics but wants to become a pro clarinetist - forgot the name, Stoltzman who doesn't use his degree in math, etc.) as well as other occupations (John Grisham - good lawyer but better writer, Ryan Neuman - is literally a rocket scientist but prefers to be a nascar driver, the late Dudley Moore - pianist turned actor, Alan Greenspan - clarinetist turned Federal Reserve) etc. etc.
And as for my two additions to the Juliard list, my high school band teacher, a clarinetist (who, if you didn't catch it, teaches high school band in addition to playing here and there and giving lessons), and another member of his graduation class who runs a music shop in NJ (who I presume also plays here or there and gives lessons through the music shop if not also privately)
Alexi
Retired, playing more sax than clarinet, but still playing clarinet and still loving it!
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Author: John Stackpole
Date: 2004-12-12 14:10
Old Joke:
The Physics grad asks: "Why?"
The Engineering grad asks: "How?"
The Economics grad: "How Much?"
The English (or Music) grad: "You want Fries with that?"
JDS
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2004-12-12 14:14
Quote:
Old Joke:
The Physics grad asks: "Why?"
The Engineering grad asks: "How?"
The Economics grad: "How Much?"
The English (or Music) grad: "You want Fries with that?" And the vo-tech grad says, "Sure. And make it a large."
Retired, playing more sax than clarinet, but still playing clarinet and still loving it!
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Author: joeclarinet
Date: 2004-12-12 17:54
I find it a tremendous shame when I see guys with Doctorates (DMA's) who aren't in music professionally.
That's got ta hurt!
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Author: msloss
Date: 2004-12-12 20:03
Why? What does a DMA prepare them for? Of all the great players we moon over on this board, how many of them completed doctoral studies?
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Author: joeclarinet
Date: 2004-12-12 20:34
It's almost every time that the player with only an undergrad or masters will win the playing job - I know that. It's still a shame to see somebody go that far educationally and not get a gig (at least in a college teaching!).
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Author: kal
Date: 2004-12-12 20:56
What with the sad state of public university funding these days, many schools simply can't afford to pay the higher salary a doctorate (in ANY field) commands. It seems so wrong, I know, but you'd have a better chance of landing a professorship if you stop at a masters.
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Author: EEBaum
Date: 2004-12-12 21:06
Odd, kal... I was under the impression that universities are tighter with their hiring policies and will therefore often ONLY hire people with a doctorate. That and graduate assistants.
-Alex
www.mostlydifferent.com
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Author: msloss
Date: 2004-12-12 22:32
Unless you come to a university credentialed through your professional achievements (e.g. L. Combs at DePaul, M. Nuccio at Manhattan, etc.), the doctorate is an absolute requirement for a professorship.
I suppose I should clarify my prior post. It was unfair to imply that university instruction wasn't "in music professionally". The doctorate doesn't get you a whole lot where performance is concerned.
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2004-12-13 14:12
kal -
These days, there are so many PhDs and DMAs that the schools hire them as adjuncts, doing TA work at TA salaries, in place of MAs.
A prime example is my wife, who, with a PhD and a published book, could find only half-time, non-tenure-track work at a bottom-of-the-barrel school. Fortunately, she also had computer talent and ended up in that field. Even if you're a Juilliard jock, music is one tough way to make a living.
Best regards.
Ken Shaw
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Author: Sylvain
Date: 2004-12-13 14:46
What is very particular of Juilliard and other top notch conservatories is that unlike universities they put a very strong emphasis (to say the least) on practice and performance. I think the amount of dedication that some of these student put into their intrument is way beyond the energy that a student puts into its say math classes or litterature. There are always exceptions, but I don't know many computer students who spend 4h per day every day improving their C++ programming skills.
When you hit a wall as an aspiring musician how do you cope with the failure after having spent so much time and energy on your instrument?
--
Sylvain Bouix <sbouix@gmail.com>
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2004-12-13 15:58
Hi Kal,
Your comment "It seems so wrong, I know, but you'd have a better chance of landing a professorship if you stop at a masters" has an error in extrapolation. If one stops at a Master's degree, the chances of achieving tenure will be very difficult much less even getting hired. A doctorate is still the "union card" for any tenure track teaching position with a major university. I know there are others on the BB that are tenured and they will probably vouch for this notion. But there are always exceptions for that "exceptional" individual (Shawn O'Keefe, head of NASA, is about to become a university president without college experience or a doctorate).
I have all the degrees needed along with the professional licenses/ratings in my field (aviation), lots of research grants and publications, and lots of teaching and professional experience; but that is expected. Along the way, I have earned tenure at three different large universities. It can be tough in academe but all fields have pretty steep requirements if one is to ultimately climb to the highest levels. The vision when initially hiring someone is that that person will be an expert in the field rather than employing someone that can be hired more cheaply.
While I know many folks in music in higher ed, my take on the DMA is that degree is usually not entirely performance-based but then, I could be very wrong since this is not my field. I thought things like adminstration, conducting, composition, and similar fields of study were the norm.
HRL
Post Edited (2004-12-13 20:31)
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Author: kal
Date: 2004-12-13 17:33
Wow, you guys really ran away with this one! I now feel like I have to defend myself. I wasn't speaking specifically of DMAs, but doctoral degrees in general... and was doing so from the (more intimate?) perspective of a current university student. Over the past two years or so, four acquaintances of mine (3 MAs and an MM) have all secured professorships, while the PhD and EdD in the crew still cannot find work (the EdD was indeed passed over for someone with only a Masters). Granted, hiring practices probably vary widely across geographical regions, and whether the school is public or private, "good" or "not so good" surely must make a difference also. I maintain that my statement is a viable one, even if it can't be applied in every situation.
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2004-12-13 17:51
What accomplishments have all your aquaintences had? I know if I were hiring someone for ANY aspect of life (including professorship), I'd rather take someone with a masters who has had experience in the field of their practice and maybe even a good track record rather than someone who completed all sorts of education but hasn't proven (at least as much as the masters candidate has) that they can and do apply their knowledge.
Retired, playing more sax than clarinet, but still playing clarinet and still loving it!
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2004-12-13 19:31
sfalexi wrote:
> I know if
> I were hiring someone for ANY aspect of life (including
> professorship),
In the cases of many college and university professorships you won't have that option.
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2004-12-13 20:39
Kal,
No, I don't think anyone has run away with anything but rather talked realistically about what it takes to be a player in other than an entry level position. A candidate with a fresh doctorate and no experience with have a tough time in comparison to the Sean O'Keefe's of the world but he is quite the exception.
Did the people you talk about that got hired get tenure-track postitions or term contracts? Big difference.
HRL
PS When you make a post of this BB, one should be ready to defend your words :-). It goes with the spurs!
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Author: kal
Date: 2004-12-13 21:23
>PS When you make a post of this BB, one should be ready to defend your >words :-).
Ummm, okaaaay... I did just that. You and I are talking about different things (which is what I meant by "running away with this one": running away from the topic at hand. I was talking about teaching in general, NOT about teaching music, and NOT about playing professionally). As for speaking realistically, I know those who have "been there; done that" like to think that they have the best grasp of what's going on, but I think that honor actually goes to the "doing it right now" folks. Yes, 2 of the MAs and the MM are in tenure-track positions. No, the MM is not at a name-brand music school.
I'm also not trying to get into an argument on this board. Thanks, though, for tryng to start one with me in another thread!
/end flame war
//probably get banned for talking back to a regular
///won't bother me in the slightest...
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2004-12-13 21:27
kal wrote:
> //probably get banned for talking back to a regular
And what would cause you to jump to that (incredibly erroneous) conclusion?
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Author: ginny
Date: 2004-12-13 21:28
I told my son that a music major required either a business minor or a duel major to get my approval.
One can make a living in music, not as well as a technical degree, if one self-promotes and is willing to play weddings, give lessons, play in small combos etc. But a person has to advertise, get in the paper, get a their name out their, get on board with wedding planners, tour companies, high end restaurants, double or triple and get pit work. It is a business and you sell your self.
It certainly is not a secure life, but it does not require being a great player, just self-intiative. I know I was never as good as many, but I was able to get gigs and students. Classical guitar (my instrument then) is easier to get solo gigs on than clarinet.
I gave it up after I had kids personally. I couldn't make enough to insure their stability or see them if I worked after school for lessons and every weekend and holiday.
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Author: larryb
Date: 2004-12-14 15:12
Kal -
try to imagine what those tough "regulars" might look like, and that might soothe your anxieties. Remember, these are Clarinetists; people who are passionate about the clarinet; people who are concerned about doing damage to their right thumbs; desperate about air leaking from their lips; forever worried about getting their swabs stuck.
now you get the picture - be bold!
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Author: diz
Date: 2004-12-14 20:22
I would NEVER recommend anyone does a major in music ... too risky and too few jobs.
Anyways - Julliard's only worth $22K a year for music degree (according to article), imagine what a degree in Medicine would cost from a top university ...
Without music, the world would be grey, very grey.
Post Edited (2004-12-14 20:37)
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2004-12-15 00:00
Diz,
And that's not even counting the cost of years of pre-med before medical school is even available.
HRL
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Author: joeclarinet
Date: 2004-12-15 12:39
Diz - yup. Too many kids get the impression that they can make it in the real world performing full time. And the music schools foster that attitude as they are greedy for their tuition.
What they usually end up doing are playing weddings and bar mitzvahs playing lounge lizard music.
I'd rather give it up and never touch it again than do that crapola.
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Author: GBK
Date: 2004-12-15 12:50
joeclarinet wrote:
> What they usually end up doing are playing weddings and bar
> mitzvahs playing lounge lizard music.
> I'd rather give it up and never touch it again than do that
> crapola.
Over the 30+ years I've played professionally, the musicians I've worked with "playing weddings and bar mitzvahs playing lounge lizard music" (your words) have been a pleasure to be around. They are supportive of one another, have no pretentions, and possess a much more realistic and pleasant attitude than the bitter and frustrated purely classical players who couldn't make it professionally.
Give me a 4 hour wedding gig over a pick-up one-time symphony fill in, anytime ...GBK
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Author: John O'Janpa
Date: 2004-12-15 13:20
Some of the best times of my life were after hours jam sessions with musicians that were winding down (or in some cases up) after the lounges they were lizarding in, closed for the night.
You never knew who would pop in, or what types of music would dominate that night, but it was always interesting. Sure beat Baermann III,
Post Edited (2004-12-15 19:45)
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2004-12-15 13:51
GBK,
You could not have said it better. You and I as former school band directors and itinerant musicians (all-styles, any time, any place) sure have a lot in common.
I have just had a couple of gigs with guys I worked with over 30 years ago (I've been out of town for a long time) playing weddings, clubs, and a few bar mitzvahs and it was like putting on a comfortable set of slippers. It's good to be back working with people that you have tremendous respect for as not only musicians but as people. Sure, we laughed about funny things that happened on the job or about leaders (most are gone now) that were a challenge but there was nothing but camaraderie present (check your egos at the door, please).
I'd have to think long and hard before I'd be able to tell you the name of someone that I would not want to be on the stand again playing "lounge-lizard" music or anything else.
HRL
Post Edited (2004-12-15 14:19)
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Author: ginny
Date: 2004-12-15 15:54
"What they usually end up doing are playing weddings and bar mitzvahs playing lounge lizard music.
I'd rather give it up and never touch it again than do that crapola."
Us non-snobs have a lot more fun, weddings are a joy to play for frankly. More fun and beauty than any concert situation will ever be. I've teared up at other people's weddings and your music is meaningful to a life event. I've played at a few bar mitzvahs and they're gas, and the foods wonderful, no starving muscian at those. Bar gigs can be fun too although they can get old.
I never had to play lounge lizard music though, it really doesn't sell around here anyhow making me think this is an image thing rather than any insight into life in music.
Even if you plan on staying strictly toney and classical you need to have be a small business unless you think a major agency will pick you up as a client. ..
It could happen, but not very likely.
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Author: diz
Date: 2004-12-15 20:20
As always, GBK's made some remarkable and insightful observations. Far be it from me (who has worked professionally as an orchestral musican, both principal and rank and vile (!)) it's a bloody hard slog. I am just suggesting that you keep your options open and have a back up plan.
And, for the record, I've played plenty of weddings in my day and, when they're good they're a blast.
Without music, the world would be grey, very grey.
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2004-12-15 20:54
I'd like to chime in too on the side of GBK, Hank, ginny and diz --- I can't claim to have ever been a full-time musician of any sort, but as a part-timer my experience has been split about 50% 'classical' bass clarinet/clarinet, and 50% jazz/big band/Top-40/wedding/combo/show saxophones, so I've straddled both sides of the fence pretty evenly. In doing so, I've made at least 90% of my 'music performance money' playing non-classical music; and probably had more fun too. I've suffered through just as many lousy/boring/unpleasant classical performances as I have nasty weddings or Top-40 gigs, and one thing I'm certain about: I've made a lot more friends on the "non-classical" side. Classical musicians, as a group (of course there are always notable exceptions) tend to be neurotic introverts and not a ton of fun to be around --- I say this knowing that sweeping generalizations are offensive to many and often wrong, but that has been my observation over 30 years of playing many kinds of music in public.
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Author: joeclarinet
Date: 2004-12-16 01:26
I turn down that stuff all the time.
Can't stand the music. To each his own 
But you don't train a performance major to do that stuff, you go to a music store to learn it.
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Author: joeclarinet
Date: 2004-12-16 01:42
Dave S., you are right. And the giggers are the ones having most of the fun too (if not all of it!). You just can't make a living at it.
It's not that I'm a snob about it, it's just not my bag. And yes, string players are just about the most uptight folks in the music business.
Probably Sax players are the coolest, drummers are the dumbest, and the trumpet players are usually so drunk that they just play loud.
(mostly kidding)
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2004-12-17 12:30
Joeclarinet,
I'm not sure I understand your post about "But you don't train a performance major to do that stuff, you go to a music store to learn it."
I have been playing gigs for over 50 years and got started playing pop and jazz on the sax (so I guess I'm cool) in my HS Stage Band - which was what it was called in the 1950s. I also learned a lot by being part of some "jazz" combos with other HS pals; we thought we were very cool and I guess looking back on it, were very courageous and a little naive. The rest I learned by actually playing jobs at the YMCA, Eagles, Elks, country clubs, weddings, etc.
I never had a lesson at a music store but had I taken lessons, my teacher would have been a guy who recently retired as a professor of jazz studies at a major Midwest university. I listeded to a lot great jazz players in person and also had several important jazz LPs. Perhaps there are others on the BB that have had similar experience.
As far as "you don't train peformance majors to do that stuff" I wonder how Eddie Daniels and Larry Combs, both performance majors I believe, learned to play "that stuff."
Help me understand your points better, please.
HRL
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Author: jjclarinet
Date: 2004-12-17 13:34
Hank, guys don't get performance degrees to play at Elks clubs. And Eddie/Larry, Ken Peploski are exceptions to the rule.
Most jazz players have to get real jobs to pay the bills. It's either Orchestral playing or teaching which ends up making a player able to support a family. Jobbing is fun, but it isn't a living.
And the music schools don't have a curriculm to do that stuff either. Yes, you can play sax in a jazz band but we're talking clarinet here.
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Author: ohsuzan
Date: 2004-12-17 15:27
The "Dilbert" cartoon running in today's papers makes a point that is relevant here:
(Mother): "Your cousin Lauren just got her degree in English. Can you give her some career advice?"
(Dilbert): "Would you enjoy scratching out a meager living in a frustrating work environment?"
(Lauren): "I've never thought about it."
(Dilbert): "Obviously."
Susan Kundert
B.A., M.A., English and American Literature
20 years as a church music minister
Amateur oboist and clarinetist
. . . and I can type 90 wpm.
(Pay scales for all of the above skills roughly equivalent)
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Author: Terry Stibal
Date: 2004-12-17 16:21
I think the problem is largely due to the lack of perception on the part of the music education community. They tend to see things in tight little compartments, program the education received by their music majors accordingly, and then turn them out on the world with a lot of wonderful theory and "book learnin'" on topics that are tangental to the needs of the world rather than what's in demand.
Face it, the world's call for clarinet players is...ahem..."somewhat limited". I'll go through the figures again:
Given that there are 100 symphonic organizations, one each in the 100 largest SMSA (census tracts with 100,000 or more present, including locales like Newark), each with 4 paid clarinet players.
(This figure is certainly way too high in reality. San Diego, for example, cannot support a symphonic group (having failed to do so three or four times that I am aware of). Places like New Orleans/"lower Louisiana" have a weakly supported organization, and I'm sure that others will name similar cases nationwide that would further erode the total. Also, any orchestras don't have four chairs, using part time folks for the occasional Romantic or Modern period work that calls for a bass or Eb horn.)
To those 400 mythical paid players, let's add another 200 in commercial work (West Coast movie work, East Coast jobbing, Chicago jobbing, Disney, traveling road shows, the military, big time solo performers, the boats based here in the US, plus a light frosting everywhere else). Given these "facts", for this argument the total number of "paid" players is taken at 600 (this in a nation with 200 million plus folks).
Now, let's consider the output of our university system that trains those who wish to enter the field. I've only had one figure for this in the past, but it alarmed me. I was once told that North Texas State had a total of twenty something twenty somethings who were majoring in clarinet performance at a given point in time. (This was many years ago, to be sure, but the number stuck in my mind.)
North Texas State is only one school among many, and their figure might be on the high side. (And, for what it's worth, NTS is a great music school from all that I've heard and seen of their graduates, by the way.) So, let's adjust things a bit. Figure twenty-five schools nation-wide (Only half of all those state universities (I don't imagine that University of Alaska has all that much of a music program...correct me if I'm wrong) PLUS the state normal schools like NTS PLUS places like Julliard and Berklee and Peabody), each with four clarinet majors falling into the at large pool each June. Total newly minted "performance clarinet players" would thus equal 100 per annum.
The problem becomes apparent pretty quickly. You'd have to assume an 18% attrition rate of the very liberal number of "now-employed" professional clarinet players to absorb the very conservative estimate of new blood produced by the system as it stands today.
In reality, it gets much worse. Aside from the high ball total of 600 (almost certainly lower), there is no music-related NKVD engaged in putting bullets into the head of the current cadre of performers, and most like to hold onto their jobs that they have achieved at such a cost in time and treasure. With these reasonable additional assumptions in hand, I'd figure no more than a 1% or 2% turnover rate in the trade, tops.
Turning out that mythical (and probably low ball figure) 100 "professional clarinet players" each year to compete for perhaps 30 jobs (a rough guestimate based upon the AFM notices) may be good for those few who are selected, but it's very bad for those many who are left on the beach.
(The "Help Wanted" notices in the AFM's newsletter Professional Musician are some interesting reading, as well as pointing out that few of the professional orchestras in the US are willing to pay upper middle class wages for their clarinet staff, I might add. If I was considering a career as a performer, about the first place that I'd go after getting my lessons and instrument setup would be to the local hall. Contacts are everything, and one of the functions of the union is to assist with those contacts. Websites are great, but sometimes people (in the form of union "brothers") are even better.)
Years ago, I wrote an article on this dismal topic. Titled something like "Montel and Susan", it followed the named individuals as each pursued their dream to its ultimate conclusion.
Montel was a potent basketball player from his early years, while Susan was a whiz on the clarinet. Both perfected their skills with endless rounds of practice (Montel while wearing those feminine-looking satin basketball uniforms, Susan in a stuffy practice room). Both successfully followed the scholarship route, both were diligent in college, and both came out almost at the top of their "game" (so to speak). And at that point, their prospects diverged sharply.
Susan's employment chances in her chosen field of clarinet performance were equally as poor as were Montel's of landing a slot with a 'professional employer'. Net result was two unhappy campers, not fortunate enough to find a job in their "chosen field".
And, that's when it really got disappointing, for Montel also had the benefit of a degree in something else (remember, both were equally diligent in "school"), while all that Susan really knew how to do "well" was to perform archaic "art music".
Simplistic perhaps, and yes I know all about the opportunities afforded in the teaching field. (I've got six high school level music teachers working for me in my musical group.) But, it's a sad comment on the four year university system, and a trenchant observation on the overall job opportunities doing something that we all love.
I've known superb 'cellists and clarinet players who are stuck in dead end jobs since their college training poorly prepared them for the skills needed in the "modern world". (I also know of a few success stories, but those who have not succeeding in earning a decent living in music are in the vast majority.) What the people in the first category found was that it was time to repeat portions of their education and fill in the gaps, and then go out and find that job that would pay the bills.
I have hired about thirty people since I started in as a manager for the government. (When not off sick as a dog as I am today, I work for OSHA.) In the pool that supplied those thirty (say some three hundred individuals who made it past the Office of Personnel Management screening process, probably a low ball figure), there have been a couple dozen music majors (and three performance majors, including a harpist (as God is my witness)).
Virtually EVERYONE else in the pool was more qualified than the music folk by education and life experience for the openings, which required only open minded, perceptive individuals to fill. (In almost every case, the music folks only made the cut because they had a "college degree". The harpist, oddly enough, had also worked in the pharmaceutical industry....stranger in a strange world...
The journeyman level positions that I was offering all paid a "living wage" ($80,000 after no more than five years of successful performance as an incumbent), and they don't require a college degree (if you have some real world experience). Yet, none of the music folks (save the harpist, who only survived the first cut) made the grade.
My "mentor" in the music field was my high school band teacher, Bob Tobler. He is a long time "professional" musician with a colorful past, widely considered as the "dean" of the union crowd in my home town, and had many years of success in directing a school district's music programs.
Bob (after some forty years, I have finally gotten over the tendency I have of calling him "Mr. Tobler") once told me that, regardless of how good I was on a horn, I should get a "real job" and then use my (apparently quite adequate as then displayed) musical talents on the side. It's a decision that I have never regretted to this day, particularly when I consider how "happy" the numerous music majors of my acquaintance have been.
(Bob also told me to avoid the air defense artillery in the military. He had a number of horror stories about the 75 mm "Skysweeper" anti-aircraft "system" that would raise the hair on your neck. What I saw of the ADA during my active duty (long after the Skysweeper guns hit the scrap pile) more than reenforced Bob's advice...a smart man indeed.)
Our liberal arts "education industry" turns out some pretty strange products. I recall a time when high schools had huge industrial arts programs to train people in the basic mechanical arts stuff and the like, but it all was abandoned when the notion of "You've got to go to college!" became the norm. Now, those with those neglected mechanical skills are in demand, while our reengineered educational system generate vast numbers of psychology majors in their place.
Perhaps a similar "sea change" in the music field would be merited...
leader of Houston's Sounds Of The South Dance Orchestra
info@sotsdo.com
Post Edited (2004-12-17 17:30)
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Author: RodRubber
Date: 2004-12-17 16:56
To be able to really express urself on clarinet through improvisation is extremely difficult. Anybody who really wants some proof to this, go try and transcribe some sax solos off jazz albums, and let me know the results. I spent most of my high school yrs sitting around transcribing Wayne Shorter, and others.
I personally took the conservatory route!. I was the last student of a MOST esteemed performer who was principal clarinet in one of the best orchestras. He assured me many times that i would be fine blah blah blah.
I realized though that the best salary one can make playing clarinet is 250K. People who earn this much are principal of a top orchestra for a decade minimum, and also have a teaching job or two, and perhaps also have some sort of mouthpiece equipment business as well. On the other hand, in the neighborhood i grew up in, there were CEOs who made that much in a week.
Point is, if you want real money, start a business, put your money on the line and go from there. If you want to live and die for clarinet, you gotta get your self involved with many different aspects of the business (teaching, playing, arranging, contracting etc) unless you get a principal job. And a lot of the principals i have talked to were looking for more ways to make money.
Lastly, those coveted military band positions pay you about 35K plus a GREAT benefit package. I would have had to take a substantial pay cut to have accepted that job.
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Author: Ed
Date: 2004-12-17 17:29
It is always frustrating to see that the attitude prevails that those playing "commercial" music are somehow inferior. It is sometimes a matter of economics, sometimes of preference. Nonetheless, it is music. It is certainly better than a lot of jobs. I have always felt that ANY time someone is willing to pay me to put the horn in my mouth, it is great, no matter what kind of music.
In addition, lots of guys I have known who do so called "commercial" gigs have a whole different skill set than your average straight classically trained player. Many have a fantastic ability to hear the harmony and structure, to improvise, to think on their feet, to know and play hundreds of tunes from memory (often in any key), knowlege of any style and time period, etc. I have known many players who do this type of work who are downright scary with what they can play and do. In addition, some of these some players are fantastic multi instrumentalists and killer classical players as well.
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2004-12-17 18:38
Ed,
You have it so right. To work a lot, it must be any style, any time, and any place. Leave your ego in the parking lot!
I remember a bass player that I worked with who was also a very fine trumpet player. He said, if I want to work, I must be adaptable.
Also, the guy in town that was the most gifted and exciting player to hear plays bass, keyboards, is terrific on vibes, does some of the nicest work on flute that you would want to hear, and blows the end of the alto in the mean time. I don't think his clarinet work is all that good :-). He is a conservatory grad that carries a lot of students privately to make "his nut."
Oh, he used to do a lot of commercials.
HRL
Post Edited (2004-12-17 18:45)
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Author: Terry Stibal
Date: 2004-12-17 20:00
Finding a good clarinet player -- worth about $200 a year to me
Finding a good clarinet player who is also a good sax player -- worth about $500 a year to me
Finding a good clarinet player who is also a good sax player who is also well versed in musical styles who is also punctual, reliable, trustworthy AND a nice guy or girl to have around in the bargain -- priceless...
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2004-12-19 01:24
Terry,
You have also gotten it right as well. Mr. Tobler had it right too.
As I have said before on this BB, I did not take the performance route for several reasons.
1. Although I was very good, I did not think I was quite "that good"
2. I was a sax player first .... say no more (but jazz and other commercial things have been very, very good to me).
3. I did not want to practice, practice, practice on small passages until they were perfect
4. I wanted to be a teacher!!!!!
What followed was over 4 decades of great teaching experiences in two entirely different fields (grade 4 instrumental beginners to doctoral students) and 5 decades of all sorts of playing. Both continue to be fun.
But I always had a day gig!
HRL
PS Ed, I'm one of those guys that knows all the tunes even though I have never played some but they are there in the memory bank somewhere and can be called up easily. It's kind of any style on any day. I remember my first heavy metal rock job as well as my first Klezmer gig (all I knew about that was it should probably sound something like Fiddler on the Roof).
Post Edited (2004-12-19 12:03)
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Author: clarinetist04
Date: 2004-12-19 01:27
That's interesting that you mention such a life path. I find myself in the same situation where you're good enough that you could hack it but not quite good enough. So instead I'm doing chemical engineering and minoring in composition. I've found it's a way to keep the music that I've loved for so long and do something else that I like that can put food on the table (for this not-quite-good-enough person) so I have the opportunity to pursue music in my off time.
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The Clarinet Pages
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