 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Painterspoon
Date: 2004-12-14 22:19
Hi,
I just purchased a Yamaha AE clarinet. I am most happy with it, and find that it plays as well as any R13, HOWEVER, there is ONE note, the first upper ledger line A, that is very unstable. It wants to voice the harmonic above and so tends to sound like a train whistle (polyphonic). I can't seem to hold it for any length of time at any decent volume. It just wants to break into the altissimo.
Is there any alternate fingering I could use, or anything else I could do myself to correct the problem? I'm playing a recital next Tuesday, and so obviously would appreciate any help I can get from any of you before then...yikes!
Thanks,
Melissa
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Author: craig
Date: 2004-12-15 06:27
This note is unstable on my R-13 A clarinet as well. Additionally, the D a 12th below sounds a little stuff. I had asked a couple people about this, and didn't get a very satisfactory answer... definitely making some adjustments with my embouchure helped the A speak better but it stil has a tendency to break up and crack when I get to louder dynamics.
Recently, I asked my new teacher and she said something about the tube corresponding to the register key that's inside the bore of the clarinet being too long on a lot of Buffets and causing this. She said this was a problem for her and she had a repairman take it out and put in a shorter tube and it cured her problem. I am planning to have that done this week too. I'd be curious what other people think about this though? Could this be the cause and have other people had experiences with this?
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Author: GBK
Date: 2004-12-15 11:37
An undertone (or "grunt") particularly on the A5 can be caused by a number of factors:
1. airflow not fast enough (high tongue position)
2. improper diaphragm support
3. tension in the throat
4. improper embouchure development
5. incorrect mouthpiece/reed resistance
6. incorrect register vent tube size
Even though you play a Yamaha, this is a very typical problem on Buffet A clarinets since about 1975 (160xxx) when they started using a longer register vent tube.
A common fix on Buffet A clarinets is to shorten the register vent tube by approximately .020" (.5mm) or substitute a Bb vent tube . (The so-called "Curtis Syndrome")
Changing the register vent tube on the Buffet R-13 A clarinets is pretty routine (although not a do-it-yourself project) and most players find the difference to be substantial.
Unfortunately, over the years, Buffet has played "register vent tube roulette" on its R-13 A clarinets. The length of the vent tube has NOT been the same, especially in the clarinets produced from the 60's, 70's, and 80's.
In the words of one highly respected US tech: "It seems that they used whatever they had lying around at the time."
Case in point: Of my 4 R-13 A clarinets, two are fairly close in serial number: 237xxx (1983) and 274xxx (1985). However the original vent tubes were totally different lengths. The 237xxx was much longer than the the 274xxx.
Guess which one played with more resistance and a slight undertone on the clarion G5, A5 and B5?
The vent tube on the 237xxx was since changed to a shorter length. The clarinet is much freer blowing and any trace of stuffiness in those notes have totally disappeared.
It now feels identical to my other 3 R-13 A clarinets (86xxx, 162xxx, 274xxx)
**Remember - changing the vent tube is a compromise and there are trade-offs. Along with increased clarity of certain notes and a more stable A5, it may have a minor affect on the throat Bb4 and tuning of the 12ths**
Other equipment related causes of a stuffy A5 could be that the height of the register key pad opening is set incorrectly or a register vent tube which simply needs to be cleaned....GBK
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2004-12-15 14:25
The clarion A "grunt" on R-13 A clarinets is an intrusion of the lower register. I haven't heard of one tending to break into the altissimo. You should check the pads at the upper end of the instrument, since even a small leak could be causing the problem.
My R-13 A is in the 126XXX series (1971) and fortunately has never had a "grunt" problem.
I've been told by a repairman (I forget which one) that when the register key is adjusted properly, you should just be able to slide a nickel under it.
Abe Galper's vent and register key replacement has gotten good reviews, but I'm not sure whether it's made for the A clarinet.
Best regards.
Ken Shaw
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2004-12-15 14:39
I had this problem with my original Bb clarinet. I found that an aftermarket barrel took away the grunt as well as having a better mouthpiece. What mouthpiece do you play on? Sometimes THAT can be the source of the problem. It could be off just enough to make a 'bad' note sound 'horrible' (or in this case, multiphonic as you say!) instead of playable. Particularly with the clarion A (which IMHO is a very tough note in which to avoid an undertone in ANY clarinet)
Other than that make sure to use plenty of airspeed and not "pinch" the note out by biting.
Alexi
US Army Japan Band
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Author: Todd W.
Date: 2004-12-15 19:09
Am I reading this post wrong?
I thought Painterspoon was asking about a problem with an OVERTONE (not an undertone) when playing the A above the staff on her YAMAHA clarinet (not her Buffet), and that she did not say it was an A clarinet, so it's probably a Bb instrument.
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Author: Painterspoon
Date: 2004-12-15 20:06
Thanks everyone!
Yes - the D a 12th lower sounds stuffy, too. I guess the clarion A is more of a grunt with an undertone, but then this instability causes it to flip into the altissimo.
It's a late 90's Yamaha custom AE, A clarinet. I'm using a Vandoren 5RV mouthpiece and a Rovner 1R ligature.
There doesn't seem to be any leaks, and the Bb vent tube seems clean. I'll probably take it in to get the vent tube shortened....how much should this cost?
Thanks everyone!!
Melissa
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2004-12-15 20:50
To shorten the vent should not take more than 15 minutes.
Be aware that the design of this vent is a compromise, attempting to 'satisfy' over 24 notes. Alter that compromise, and you may well find you have a different problem. If a better compromise was that easy, then it is very likely that the enormous R&D resources of Yamaha would have found it and be incorporating it.
It seems to me more likely that a slightly altered breath pressure/embouchure, as suggested in an earlier post would be an appropriate fix. Some notes are certainly affected more than others when there are problems with these parameters. Do other capable players have the same problem with this instrument?
Your technician, if he has any sense, may wish that you take full responsibility for exactly how much you want taken off, and for the the results. You cannot expect technicians to be experts in the acoustic design of clarinets. That is a very specialist area.
It may be a good idea to ensure that you have access to a replacement original if things go wrong. Every model of clarinet is likely to have a differently designed vent.
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Author: Painterspoon
Date: 2004-12-16 14:35
Thanks everyone - I've decided to work with it...
The multiphonics seem to go away if I press the G# key...the intonation is sharp, but it might work for slower, exposed passages.
Melissa
This board is great!
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Author: Jack Kissinger
Date: 2004-12-17 03:20
While it is possible that the problem is the register vent tube, before I did anything drastic like having it filed I would want to make sure that the actual cause wasn't a leak -- particularly given that you detect stuffiness in the lower D. If you read my post in the thread at:
http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/read.html?f=1&i=93197&t=93131
it will tell you how to perform the "suck" test and the "blow" test for leaks.
My first suspect would be the small key closed by the ring that you depress when you play the D/A. If that is leaking slightly, it could actually have the effect of acting as a second register key (similar to half-holing). The only problem is that I would expect it to affect other notes below A. However, it may be that, when you close the C/G tonehole, you change your hand position enough to seal the key (in which case, BTW, the suck and blow tests may not disclose a problem).
Another possible explanation might be that the D/A ring is set in such a way that you are not completely closing the tone hole when you play the A. Try pressing extra hard when you play the A and see if the problem disappears.
If the leak is very slight, the suck and blow tests may give a false negative. The suck test may pull the pad closed and the opening may be too small to make the blow test conclusive. Still, one or the other might work, and they are easy to do and far less intrusive than filing the register tube. If neither works but the problem goes away when you press hard on the ring (and you could also use your right hand to put extra pressure on the key right above it), have a repair tech look for a leak. In any case, since the problem affects both registers, I would look for a leak first.
Best regards,
jnk
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