 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: John Stackpole
Date: 2004-12-12 18:43
An idle question for a Sunday afternoon (more fun than practicing...) (or Christmas shopping...)
One sees Bb, and Ab, and Eb clarinets, Eb trumpets, etc.
Are there (or were there ever) clarinets, or other instruments for that matter, keyed on the other side of the "circle of keys"?
I know there are C clarinets (and lots of other C instruments) but what about G or A etc. where you get your sharps for free, so to speak?
JDS
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Author: EEBaum
Date: 2004-12-12 18:48
There most definitely are A clarinets, as I played mine at a concert just over a week ago.
There are also D clarinets, though you don't see them very often.
Bassett horns are in F.
-Alex
www.mostlydifferent.com
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Author: John Stackpole
Date: 2004-12-12 18:55
Was I wrong when I sort of asserted there were Ab clarinets, in my first post?
Perhaps I confused myself with your A.
(There is always more to learn.)
JDS
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2004-12-12 19:16
There's definitely an Ab clarinet. Higher pitched than the Eb.
Also a G clarinet. Here's what I know so far . . .
Bb
A
Eb
F (basset horn)
G
D
C
Ab
No particular order.
I think the Ab is called a Sopranino clarinet or something to that affect (VERY small, very shrill!)
Most commonly used clarinets by your average symphonic player would be Bb, A, and Eb. (probably in that order)
US Army Japan Band
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Author: donald
Date: 2004-12-12 19:41
can we count the clarinet in B natural?
(ok, so these are really "high pitch Bflat clarinets", but they sound in B natural...)
if it comes to that, one of my E flat clarinets is also HP (or is it "high band pitch"?) and plays pretty close to E natural.
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Author: David Peacham
Date: 2004-12-12 20:12
Before the invention of valves in the early nineteenth century, trumpets and horns came in all sorts of keys. To avoid having to buy and transport anything up to a dozen instruments, the player used one basic instrument plus a set of interchangeable "crooks" that could be swapped over in a few seconds. If you look at trumpet and horn parts, especially horn parts, well into the nineteenth century, you will see that they are always written with no key signature, and are marked with the transposition "Horn in F", "Horn in E", "Horn in A" or whatever. Where four horns were used, they were commonly arranged as two pairs, crooked in two different keys. This custom continued even after valves came into general use; Wagner is particularly notorious for writing very frequent changes of crook, which in practice have always been executed using the valves.
As an example, Brahms' German Requiem, written twenty or thirty years after valves came into use, has:
first movement in F, two horns in F.
second movement starts in Bb minor, two horns in C, two in Bb. Later in the movement, the horns in C change to F.
third movement starts in F, two horns in D, two in Bb, later all four in D.
fourth movement in Eb, two horns in Eb.
fifth movement in G, two horns in D.
sixth movement in Cminor, two horns in C, two in E.
seventh movement starts in F, two horns in F, two in E.
And Brahms played in horn in his youth, so he had some idea of what he was doing.
Back in the time of Bach, fewer transpositions were used; so far as I recall all his brass parts are in D, F or (rarely) Eb. Indeed, the reason the Mass in B minor is in B minor is that large parts of it are actually in D major, the relative major, which was the preferred key for trumpets at that time.
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If there are so many people on this board unwilling or unable to have a civil and balanced discussion about important issues, then I shan't bother to post here any more.
To the great relief of many of you, no doubt.
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2004-12-12 22:54
Quote:
Indeed, the reason the Mass in B minor is in B minor is that large parts of it are actually in D major, the relative major, which was the preferred key for trumpets at that time. As well as the preferred key for stringed instruments (violin and the like) if I interpreted my last posting correctly.
Alexi
US Army Japan Band
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Author: clarinetist04
Date: 2004-12-12 23:00
Here is a list of clarinets in keys that were written for at SOME time and were made:
Ab (made by LeBlanc)
Eb (made by everyone)
D (Buffet has a model)
C (Buffet)
Bb (duh)
A (again, duh)
G (made by Amati)
Bassette in F (also pitched in A, made by Buffet)
Those I can guarantee were made. I HAVE heard of a clarinet in B natural, but never seen any proof of it (old boxwood clarinet). In a book by Geoffrey Rendell, he makes note of a clarinet in E natural and B natural. There are pictures of a metal (brass) clarinet in Db. I've read about a contrabass clarinet in Gb (no pictures or anything...I doubt the existence of it). Hope this helps.
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Author: Alphie
Date: 2004-12-13 01:23
Who decided that they all should have "flat" names? Why not clarinets in A#, D# and G#? ![[huh]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smilie11.gif)
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Author: John Stackpole
Date: 2004-12-13 01:35
Are not those designations that are used the "home" note of the key signature involved? The "root" of the scale?
JDS
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Author: donald
Date: 2004-12-13 02:10
i have played a clarinet in Bnatural, and Jack Brymer wrote an article in the Clarinet some years ago about these instruments- i think at the time it was decided that they were merely HP Bflat clarinets with short barrels so they played a half tone below concert pitch.
in 1985 a student turned up for lessons with one- which wouldn't have been such a big problem except that it was a group lesson with 5 or 6 other students (playing B flat clarinets....). I've personally seen and played one other (which was stamped with "HP")
donald
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Author: Kalakos
Date: 2004-12-13 05:41
I have a boxwood and ivory, simple system clarinet by H. Gunckel (sp?), with really an archaic key set up (different from most so-called Albert). It is marked "B". No HP or anything else. It plays in B natural.
Thanks,
John
Kalakos
Kalakos Music
http://www.TAdelphia.com
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Author: Terry Stibal
Date: 2004-12-13 06:18
There was extensive discussion on the clarinet in B about five years back in The Clarinet. Someone (Jerry Pierce, I believe) had encountered one that appeared to be pitched in B natural. The argument was that the dimensions weren't right for a Bb, but the bore may have changed enough to raise the pitch.
The opinions of Jerry Pierce and others (Lee Gibson, perhaps) expressed therein were that "they" may have made them at one time in the past, but that it was unlikely that any were made in the "modern" era. (In other words, those looking for a B natural clarinet would do well to also look for "clapper" keys and a complete lack of any rings.)
As I understand it, marking a horn with "B" can be construed as marking it for the key of Bb. I don't recall where I've seen that, but it's in one of the main historical books (Rendall, perhaps).
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Author: David Peacham
Date: 2004-12-13 10:31
Terry wrote:
"As I understand it, marking a horn with "B" can be construed as marking it for the key of Bb"
Yes, because the Germans call Bb "B". Bnatural they call H.
The Brahms horn parts I referred to above as being in Bb are actually marked "Horn in B" in the score, but Bb is meant. Similarly, many editions of clarinet music are marked as "Klarinette in B"; again, this means Bb.
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If there are so many people on this board unwilling or unable to have a civil and balanced discussion about important issues, then I shan't bother to post here any more.
To the great relief of many of you, no doubt.
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Author: Alphie
Date: 2004-12-13 11:12
We used them in performances and recording of "Cosi fan tutte" that calls for clarinets in B natural.
Alphie
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2004-12-13 14:25
Dan Leeson has written several times on the Klarinet list about clarinets in B natural. Search there on Leeson "b natural" to find his very interesting discoveries and research.
Best regards.
Ken Shaw
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Author: donald
Date: 2004-12-13 18:21
hey Alphie- i did nearly 40 performances of Cosi earlier in the year with Opera NZ, and remember looking at the part thinking "that would have been x!!@sxvty difficult on a period instrument". But the use of "clarinet in B natural" (H) would explain it..... (or maybe Mozart just wrote really difficult bits now and again to keep the clarinets awake)
donald
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Author: Arnold the basset hornist
Date: 2004-12-16 08:41
Hello,
some little extract form "Anweisung zur Klarinette nebst einer kurzen Abhandlung über das Bassett-Horn" by Johann Georg Heinrich Backofen,
first print 1803, reprinted 1986 by Moeck Verlag, Germany:
Today generally used clarinets:
pitched in C, Bb an A
rare used pitches:
(low) G, B (natural), D, Eb, E (natural) and F
Arnold (the basset hornist)
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2004-12-16 14:55
Depending upon "how deeply you wish to research it", Al Rice's new book, "Cl in Classical Period" will give you the most complete info I know of, including the "pieces of re-change", two U J"s but only one L J !! [Bb and C or Bb and A ??..Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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