 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: 3dogmom
Date: 2004-12-05 19:41
Hi, folks:
I have had an ongoing problem with the adjustment of the b natural keys on my evette-shaeffer buffet. I have had it to the tech, and it comes back almost fine, but a little off. I can't ever seem to get it back into synch. I've tried adjusting the crow's foot key myself as I feel this is somehow related, and have probably messed it up because now I'm hearing metal clicking when I play those keys.
Since I have to do some small group work this week, and can't get back to the tech, should I try something myself or am I likely to make the problem worse? Should this be a such a tricky problem?
Sue
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Author: VermontJM
Date: 2004-12-05 21:35
I can't even attempt to tell you how to adjust these- I just adjusted mine last week because it was off, but I would never try to tell anyone- I usually let my tech do it.
The way I see it, you have a 50/50 chance. Look really carefully at what isn't working and see if you can figure out how the mechanism works, then give it a try if you feel comfortable. I did this and bent the key just enough to put it back into adjustment, so I had a firm seal, but I did it with my fingers, no tools... Just be careful. I usually don't do this myself, but I was in a pinch.
Good luck!
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Author: ron b
Date: 2004-12-05 21:54
Whether this is an ongoing problem or not, Sue, the customer (you) should not have to do anything beyond playing beautiful music with a recently repaired/adjusted instrument. The horn should be right on... not almost fine, or a little off. You have every reason to expect it to be...
8( RIGHT ON! ] .
You shouldn't need to mess with the crow's foot, but you can do that in a pinch if you know what you're doing. Otherwise, it's guesswork; maybe you'll "get lucky", maybe you won't. If the mechanism wasn't in sync when it left the tech's hands it wasn't adjusted properly. I'd be back there lodging a complaint in a moment - fix it right or fork over a refund!
Possibly your tech overlooked a worn or loose pivot screw or some other reason for "loose key syndrome". If so, find another tech asap. They're supposed to routinely check those things.
The long B (E/B) is one of the touchier combinations to regulate. The C and B pads must close simultaneously, while the C# and Eb stay closed, and all pads seat perfectly. Without a leak light, preferably a feeler, it's trial and success at best - more likely though, frustration and disappointment.
Clicking metallic sound indicates a silencer, probably cork, is not where it should be [sigh] ( steps down from soapbox looking longingly toward the distant horizon.... ).
- r![[cool]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/cool.gif) n b -
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2004-12-05 23:01
I'll tell you how I adjust the E/B and F/C "marriage", and hope it doesn't amuse/alarm/insult our pro repairers, I know there are better ways and other potential problems. To determine which pad [presumably both and ALL above are in good shape !!] I should and will [prob.] lightly heat, as with a gopher match, I play the mid staff B with th left little finger only, if it doesnt sound at all or poorly, try tapping the rt L F F/C touch, if that makes it sound OK, then it tells you that the the lower pad is not seating in unison, [which is the usual case], so lightly heat the lower pad CUP while holding down the LEFT L F E/B key ONLY. If its the other way [ F/C seating , the E/B not seating,] only then consider a crow's foot adjustment , OR bending down the E/B pad while holding its rt L F touch, OR lightly heating the F/C pad, again holding down the left L F E/B touch. Low temp softening of the pad's glue allows the "floating-in" of pads, and often, deepening of their "sealing rings", caution is advised, and some mech. apptitude helps. Too much said ?, good comments, Ron, Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2004-12-05 23:18
Correction , line 6, delete "not seating in unison" making it "seating before unison with the F/C pad". Sorry, didn't read it the 3rd time ! Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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Author: allencole
Date: 2004-12-06 05:46
I run into these crows-foot problems frequently with students, and have taken to using the sheets of Valentino adhesive-backed synthetic cork. I keep it in 1/16, 1/32 and 1/64" thicknesses. Rather than bend anything on the crows foot or trying to stick cork onto cork, I put the my adhesive cork on the underside of the RH B or C# key, whichever is out of adjustment.
This is a temporary fix, but can keep you going until a more pro repair job can be had.
BTW, a student of mine has a Boosey, which has screw adjustments on its crows foot. The only brand where I've seen this. Anybody here have an opinion on the pros or cons of having a screw adjustment on that?
Allen Cole
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2004-12-06 08:56
I think 50/50 is VERY optimistic. I don't think I have ever come across a DIY effort that is well done. BTW you definitely need a new technician if he cannot get this right.
Having this area function correctly and reliably involves a large packet of diverse contributory factors, and getting EVERY ONE right:
Posts secure, no 'play' in point pivots, no play in the F/C pivot tube, no metal parts rubbing, correct alignment of the levers with where they engage with the keys, any silencing materials secure and of appropriate type/thickness for reliably TRANSFERRING motion where two pads close together, good quality pads, no binding of springs against keys, crowsfoot in the same plane as the E/B key when E/B is depressed, level tone holes, low levers not binding against eachother or the keys they engage, low friction where silencing materials are involved, no air pockets behind the pads, pads installed such that the pressure against the tone holes is the SAME all around, no binding of pads or key cups against the recess in the timber, key geometry correct and pad thickness to match so that key cups are central over the tone holes, no binding between the crowsfoot mounting leg and the adjacent 'touch pieces', etc.........
ALL of these faults are very common!
A pretty quick job for a GOOD technician. A poor technician could never get it right!
Very few DIY gus are good technicians; they tend to apply band-aid over band-aid over band-aid, with each one progressively decreasing the general reliability, and increasing the work that a good technician eventually has to carry out. Alter one thing and you tend to mess up a few others.
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Author: Terry Stibal
Date: 2004-12-06 15:05
One other brand of horn has the adjustment screws as well. I reviewed an ad for them based upon a link from this site, and I imagine that it was the Hammerschmidt Boehm horns that I saw.
One other thing about crowfoot adjustments: watch how you handle the horn into and out of the case, and never try to screw a bell on that isn't a good sliding fit with cork grease. Most of the long key maladjustments come from grabbing the lower joint too tightly while assembling/disassembling horns. Easy to prevent, but I've seen people with a doctorate in clarinet jamming them together, so it something that we all have done.
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2004-12-06 18:23
Fine info, Allencole, Gordon, Terry, yes, I've also seen the C F set screw just cant remember where, possibly like on the OLD Patent C# of the Albert era ! Of course the greater the number of S S's, the greater is the student's temptation to MALadjust them !! Gordon's "run down" on the multiplicity of potential troubles, and Terry's re: long key-rod/tube bending risks are very pertinent. The latter is SO true on the larger cls, I take real care with my Selmer Bass and Alto assembly/disassembly. Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2004-12-06 20:19
Don, re your post on making adjustments by softening the pad glue and moving the pad.
If the glue is softened and the key(s) closed until the glue sets again, the result will almost always be a pad that closes firmly at the hinge side, but poorly at the opposite side. This is a result of the influence of the key being hinged from the side, rather than lifting vertically. The shorter the key cup arm, and the larger the tone hole diameter, the greater is this effect.
To avoid this, an approach that works is to soften the glue, then using a shim while the key is open, alter the alignment of the pad(s) in the cup(s) until it will definitely close more firmly at the non-hinge side. Now ensure (by a wealth of experience and knowing what glue is being used!) that the glue is warm enough to be movable under pressure, but not too soft, and close the key(s) with just sufficient pressure to move the pad within the key cup to close level on the tone hole, but NOT enough pressure to go past this point and end up with firmer closure at the hinge side.
Testing during the process with a feeler of goldbeaters skin can lead more quickly to the desired result, of having the same drag on the feeler (drawn from under the pads) in all locations while using very light finger pressure on the touch piece of the key involved.
Often several attempts may be needed, to get the combination of glue viscosity and finger pressure just right. BTW this does not really work if the pad is too firm a fit in the key cup. The friction interferes with the process.
I resort to this process occasionally, but I certainly do not see it as an easy option for DIY, especially when two pads are simultaneously involved, as they would be for E/B-F/C if the technique is used not only for individual pad sealing but also for linkage adjustment. It is not an easy option because it is a particularly tricky thing to get right. A likely result is glue oozing around the pad - the very surplus glue that is needed behind the pad in order to successfully make ANY pad-alignment-within-key-cup adjustments.
An alternative method which I have yet to explore, but THEORETICALLY right, is to place a shim washer, say a flute pad backing washer, between a pad and the tone hole, then warm the cup and press the key closed. The thickness of this washer would have the effect of compensating for the closing-more-firmly-at-the-back effect mentioned early in this post. The trick would be to get exactly the right thickness of washer, which would depend on the tone hole diameter, length of key cup arm, and possibly the squishiness of the pad itself.
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Author: ron b
Date: 2004-12-06 21:17
Interesting theory about washer material behind pad technique, Gordon. I've entertained the idea (or, more likely heard it from another source) too. It's another one of those "great ideas" that came and went but weren't acted upon. I find no reason at all that it wouldn't work pretty much as it does with flute pads.
Maybe we should start a new thread with this as a topic. We're drifting away from 3dogmom's original question about shoddy repairs.
- ron b -
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Author: 3dogmom
Date: 2004-12-06 21:57
Thank you all for your help. I do not feel that attempting adjustments myself would be wise - maybe after my work this week. Obviously the tech has been applying bandaids as Gordon suggested. This has been going on long enough.
Thanks - Sue
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2004-12-06 22:00
Good point, Ron, GBK/MC HELP ? I've watched skilled "pad seaters" use the shim/feeler techniques, but guess I am always in too much of a hurry !!, Good analysis of the mechanics of key-pressure, Gordon, I've experienced some of the shortcomings you describe. I found several patents to Haynes Flute on back, [believe Powell was inventor] describing the "floating in" process, on a search re: plastic pads. Will see if I can re-find [and will post] , Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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Author: JoeMich
Date: 2004-12-07 15:42
Not aware of any current horns with adjusting screws, but my old, (ca 1940) Silver King has a screw that adjusts the closing of the mid-staff "C" key. Really work great!
Joe.
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