 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: OpusII
Date: 2004-11-30 12:33
Last July I bought a new Opus II Bes clarinet, I had the opportunity to select it at the Leblanc Factory out of 16 clarinets. I’m really in love with this clarinet and have treated it the best way I can.
Yesterday I discovered a crack above the register vent of my Opus II, it’s about two centimeter long and all the way trough the wood. Now I’ve been searching for the best solution to fix this problem, I could claim warranty and get new wood….. or let it fixed by a local tech. I’ve already talked to the tech and he said that he could “bind it together” with carbon? (The same technique that they used for the rings on the Buffet Crampon Elite)
What would you do, replace the selected wood….or fixing the crack?
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Author: LeWhite
Date: 2004-11-30 12:52
I think you should fix the crack - if you replace the wood, your nice hand-selected instrument is no longer exactly that. In fact, it could play terribly! Despite Leblanc's consistency, I wouldn't risk it.
__________________
Don't hate me because I play Leblanc! ![[down]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smiley23.gif) Buffet
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Author: hans
Date: 2004-11-30 14:27
Eddy,
You have my sincere sympathy.
If trade-in value is a consideration, you might be better off with a new section, since repaired cracks seem to cause significant loss in value.
Maybe some of the repair techs will give their opinions on whether or not a crack this soon in a new instrument could indicate that there is a problem with this piece of wood that would make further cracking likely.
Regards,
Hans
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Author: OpusII
Date: 2004-11-30 14:59
Hans,
Thanks for your sympathy.
Quote:
Maybe some of the repair techs will give their opinions on whether or not a crack this soon in a new instrument could indicate that there is a problem with this piece of wood that would make further cracking likely.
I was hoping the same....
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Author: William
Date: 2004-11-30 15:09
As for the possiblily of a new instrument crack, Tom Ridenour (the accoustician who designed the Opus, Concerto, Sonata and Infinity models for LeBlanc) once told me to, "have it repaired, and forget about it". In other words, a crack, if properly repaired, will not cause any change in the playing characteristics of a clarinet, so your hand selected Opus should play the same after its repair "proceedure".
And I will us the "N" word--if you like the way your clarinet plays, NEVER substitute a new upper or lower joint instead of having it repaired. A new section will always cause changes in playing characteristics--eveness of scale, intoation and tone quailty--that, for the most part, are often worse, than better. If the crack or damage is such that a new joint is the "only answer", then it would be better to go back to the LeBlanc factory and select a new instrument. Barrels and bells can be more readily interchanged or replaced, but a change in upper or lower joint is much more accoustically critical, and, most often, the unwise choice.
Bottom line--DON'T go for it. Have the crack repaired and forget about it.
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Author: clarinetwife
Date: 2004-11-30 15:22
William wrote:
> If the crack or damage is such that a new joint is the "only
> answer", then it would be better to go back to the LeBlanc
> factory and select a new instrument.
>
Is this option ever given to folks under warranty or do people usually have to sell the instrument? I myself cannot imagine accepting a different piece of timber for one of the joints, but we also have an R13 that had a crack repaired, and that crack "sprang" many years later. A difficult situation all around.
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Author: ron b
Date: 2004-11-30 17:26
I believe, Opie, in your circumstances at this stage, repair is your best option. Personally, given a choice, I'd either have the instrument repaired (as recommended above) or select a completely new instrument; a tedious process to go through all over again (and, at whose expense?). If your tech, who appears competent from what you say, does the repair will LeBlanc pay for it?
- r![[cool]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/cool.gif) n b -
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Author: BobD
Date: 2004-11-30 17:33
Sorry, but I guess I would invoke the warranty and select another instrument. If I had the cracked one repaired I'd be waiting "for the other shoe to fall". i.e. when will another crack appear.
Bob Draznik
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Author: Carol Dutcher
Date: 2004-11-30 19:54
I had a new Noblet C clarinet which cracked after three months. So I used the warranty and got a new section and it's been fine ever since. I think if I had had it repaired, I would have been pretty nervous about this same thing happening again. It's an awful feeling though to look at your horn and see this happening.
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2004-11-30 20:11
Steve Fox put 30 pins into my Selmer Eb contra to reconstruct the bottom tenon on the upper joint. Even when he showed me where they were, I couldn't see them. A good repair tech can do the work invisibly.
Hans Moennig pinned Ralph McLane's A clarinet innumerable times. McLane could easily have gotten a new joint, but the one he had was so good that he didn't want to take chances. I heard Harold Wright play the Brahms Quintet on that instrument, and it was gorgeous.
I'd say get it pinned.
Best regards.
Ken Shaw
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2004-11-30 20:28
A crack relieves stresses in the timber. It could be argued that 'repairing' that crack does not introduce the stresses again. This would make the instrument LESS likely to crack again than a replacement joint.
However any method of repair may well introduce new stresses elsewhere. (Even with carbon fibre repair techniques, the carbon fibre probably expands with temperature, whereas the surrounding timber expands with moisture.) I have yet to see cracks appear from these stresses.
Modern approaches to dealing with cracks CAN produce a result that is not noticed unless it is pointed out. Carbon fibre techniques probably produce a more conspicuous result than pinning, because there is a ring of different surface texture around the entire instrument.
Carbon fibre is probably more successful at stabilising the outside of the timber. By comparison, a pin crosses and stabilises a split quite deep in the timber. If a crack crosses a tone hole, it is of some importance to stabilise the edge of the tone hole, near the surface of the timber, or leaks will result as the timber opens (from moisture expansion in the bore) at the tone hole edge. Your split may be nowhere near a tone hole however. Whether a leak could develop around a vent is debatable. I normally suggest replacement under guarantee when tone holes are seriously involved, especially where there is very little or no room for pins or banding.
This is a field of much conjecture, and few definites. All methods of dealing with cracks make the assumption that the vicinity can be made a lot more rigid, but the reality is that timber is a material that moves, and any binding material that is not timber, moves differently. The forces involved are quite strong. Whether modern bonding materials, used in an environment that may well be oily, can overcome these forces is debatable.
To me it is quite surprising that crack treatment is as successful as it normally is.
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Author: Brenda Siewert
Date: 2004-12-01 13:52
If you're happy with the instrument you should have it repaired. Your resale value has already dipped and it won't make much difference now what you do about it. A cracked instrument with a repair has less resale appeal than a perfect used one--and an instrument with a replacement section is also difficult to sell. So, if it's a great instrument and you love it, you should fix it and keep it because a good one is worth keeping. I should know, I've sold all the ones I really liked and regretted it.
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2004-12-01 21:46
"...an instrument with a replacement section is also difficult to sell...."
Why is that? I have been involved with players sending split Selmers back to Paris. The instrument returned for the player has no evidence whatsoever of a joint being replaced, so how would a later buyer know?
The replacement joint even has a serial number to match that on the other section.
Perhaps Selmer have been replacing the entire instrument... I'm not sure.
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Author: BobD
Date: 2004-12-01 22:33
I have assumed that the warranty allowed replacing the entire instrument...not just the cracked section. I certainly wouldn't replace only the top cracked section.
Bob Draznik
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2004-12-01 22:51
Do you seriously think that quality control in manufacture is so poor that one section is going to be very different from another.
If so, there is just as good a chance of getting a better section than the current one, a worse one.
Personally I think significant differences between instruments in a model is largely to do with 'feel' which is mainly to do with adjustment of pads and mechanism.
I think most of us translate 'feel' (to the fingers) into perceived sound to a greater or lesser degree. Our minds are not good at completely differentiating between the input from our senses.
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Author: clarinetwife
Date: 2004-12-02 00:02
I had understood that both joints are made from a single piece of timber, so that by replacing one joint you have half of one piece and half of another piece. I would think that would make as much difference as having an instrument made with an entirely different piece of wood. Are the upper and lower joint indeed made from a single piece?
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Author: Vytas
Date: 2004-12-02 01:15
****Why is that? I have been involved with players sending split Selmers back to Paris. The instrument returned for the player has no evidence whatsoever of a joint being replaced, so how would a later buyer know?
The replacement joint even has a serial number to match that on the other section.****
I think Brenda makes a good point. I've seen many replacement joins that had No serial number at all. Selmer engraves the star(s) ** that indicate the replacement joint. I've also seen replacements that had serial numbers done by hand.
Vytas Krass
Professional clarinet technician
Custom clarinet mouthpiece maker
Former professional clarinet player
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2004-12-02 01:30
"I think Brenda makes a good point. I've seen many replacement joins that had No serial number at all. Selmer engraves the star(s) ** that indicate the replacement joint. I've also seen replacements that had serial numbers done by hand."
ARe you writing of CURRENT practice? I have not seen such things on returned clarinets in the last few years at least. Perhaps this is what happens when they are returned via a Selmer importer in USA.
"I had understood that both joints are made from a single piece of timber"
I can't see any particularly good reason why this would be done, especially for the models where there has been a black grain-filler used on the surface to hide grain and colour discrepancies. Do you have any evidence that this is done, or has this idea just gathered momentum as notions tend to do in forums.
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Author: OpusII
Date: 2004-12-02 07:59
Quote:
I had understood that both joints are made from a single piece of timber, so that by replacing one joint you have half of one piece and half of another piece. I would think that would make as much difference as having an instrument made with an entirely different piece of wood. Are the upper and lower joint indeed made from a single piece?
I know for sure that this isn’t the case….. but before putting the keys on the sections, both section are being put together and the bore is being checked.
When they replace the upper section, they provide it with the right serial number, Buffet does this also…. ( about 9 years ago I’ve had this done with my Buffet Crampon RC and it’s still a great instrument )
Gordon, I believe your right…. And probably I will replace the section under warranty.. After all by the many discussions on this board I’ve learned that the sounds comes for the main part from the barrel and bell… I only hope that I don’t get any intonation troubles.
The day after I detected the crack, the instrument would get straubinger pads…real glad a saw the crack before putting them on
I would thank you all for your comments… I’ve contacted Eddy Vanoosthuyse, he has informed the Commercial director from Leblanc Benelux.. so I think I will have a solution very fast… I will let you know, what happens with my instrument.
Eddy
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Author: clarinetwife
Date: 2004-12-02 13:41
Quote:
I had understood that both joints are made from a single piece of timber, so that by replacing one joint you have half of one piece and half of another piece. I would think that would make as much difference as having an instrument made with an entirely different piece of wood. Are the upper and lower joint indeed made from a single piece?
"I know for sure that this isn’t the case….. but before putting the keys on the sections, both section are being put together and the bore is being checked."
Ok, I see. I think I misinterpreted something I saw from some video footage inside a factory. Thanks for clarifying.
OpusII, best of luck with your instrument.
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2004-12-02 19:18
Just an odd anomaly...
It is sometimes claimed that a horn with a repaired split goes better than the same horn before it spit, supposedly because the tension in the timber has been relieved.
Yet we have here somebody who considers he has chosen the best out of 16 horns, and has apparently chosen one that has extra high tension in the timber, presumably the reason why it split.
All sympathies, but hmmm.
My personal feeling is that if a replacement is adjusted by a clarinet-playing, better-than-average technician, there is every chance that it will go better than the original anyway.
Post Edited (2004-12-02 19:21)
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