 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2004-11-30 04:20
Hi
I recently read that "the Boehm system eliminated the need for cross fingerings". I always thought cross fingerings mean when you change your fingering but stay on the same note. Since this is something you sometime need to do on Boehm clarinet I guess that is not cross fingerings.
My question is, what does cross fingerings mean? (I did search but all threads on the subject assumed people knew what it means)
I'd also like to know how exactly you pronounce certain words.
Boehm
Ohler
Chalmeu
(not sure I spelled them correct)
Thank you.
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Author: allencole
Date: 2004-11-30 04:36
Just a guess, but I wonder if they're talking about the need to slide with a roller between B/C# or C/E-flat?
I've noticed that the Albert system stems to have some fork-type fingerings, and wonder if that might have something to do with the term.
Allen Cole
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Author: ron b
Date: 2004-11-30 05:01
I play both Albert (Oehler) and Boehm system, Clarnibass. I've heard the term "cross fingering" used to describe Albert fingering. Both systems use what I *guess* are cross fingerings. Your definition - same note, different fingering - may be as accurate as anyone's. The actual, real, bona fide meaning of the term "cross fingering" excapes me because on neither instriment does anything cross... except perhaps the audience's eyes when I hit one of "those notes" 
___________________________________________
Through spelling only... no demo possible here :|
...my personal 'best-effort' would be:
Boehm - behm, rhymes with hem.
Oehler - u(r)h-ler. The Oe is an umlauted German "O", difficult for English speakers... somewhere between O and U and with a somewhat softer approach.
Chalameau - shall-i-mow
- r![[cool]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/cool.gif) n b -
Post Edited (2004-11-30 05:05)
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Author: ron b
Date: 2004-11-30 05:21
Oops! Thank you, Allen. I posted before seeing your response.
I forgot all about "fork" fingering(s). Yeah... F and Bb can be fingered using RH 1 and 3. But that's more of an 'alternate', isn't it? I usually use RH 1, 2 and sliver - leaving 3 open - which, for me anyway, is a clearer sounding (top line) F. Lower Bb seems to be about the same with either fingering. First line Eb can be fingered LH T,1 and 3 but, again, at least on my instruments, it's not my first choice. First space F can be done with T and 3rd (second hole) finger but I find it rather 'stuffy'.
- ron b -
Post Edited (2004-11-30 05:24)
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Author: GBK
Date: 2004-11-30 05:23
Very simplified definition:
In a cross fingering, holes are covered further down on the instrument from the first open hole.
Example: Alternate Ab5 fingering for clarinet TR x x o / x x o
...GBK
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Author: ron b
Date: 2004-11-30 05:39
Cool ...but nothing's "crossed", GBK... 'cept the diagram's Ex's (smirk).
I guess it's like many other terms, idioms(?), pea-soup fog, watering hole, up in the air, shoe's on the other foot - etc.
Some fingerings make me a little CROSS when I have to use 'em. But, yeah, I think your definition hit the nail on the head... ![[rotate]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smiley25.gif)
______
ron b
Post Edited (2004-11-30 05:41)
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Author: David Peacham
Date: 2004-11-30 13:24
As GBK says, a cross-fingering is one where "holes are covered further down on the instrument from the first open hole".
But that isn't quite the whole definition. On that definition, the normal fingering for clarion F# would be a cross fingering, as would the 1-and-1 fingering for clarion Bb.
The reason they are not cross-fingerings can be understood by comparing clarion F# on the clarinet with upper F# on a soprano or tenor recorder. On both instruments, you cover the three left-hand holes to get G, then lower finger 5 to get F#. On the recorder, it is purely the covering of the hole that turns G into F#. That is a cross-fingering. On the Boehm clarinet, the covering of the hole by finger 5 is incidental; the F# is produced largely by the closing of the top pad on the lower-joint.
So far as your fingers are concerned, the two instruments are played identically. But acoustically, there is a difference: the recorder fingering is a cross-fingering, but the clarinet fingering is not.
The reason that eliminating cross-fingerings is considered a good thing is not really because it improves fingering convenience. It is because the tone-quality of cross-fingered notes is inferior to that of plain-fingered notes. Cross-fingerings work quite well on the recorder, but on the clarinet, especially in the lower register, they tend to produce a muffled sound. Boehm's achievement was not so much to produce an instrument that was easy to finger in every key, but rather to produce an instrument that had good tone-quality in every key.
...
Pronunciation: the vowel in Boehm and the vowel in Oehler have the same sound. They sound very roughly (I stress VERY roughly) like the vowel in germ or worm, spoken in a southern England accent with no sign of a rolled R.
Chalumeau sounds like "shall you mow". Well, no, it doesn't really. The U is a French U, which has no counterpart in English. But "shall you mow" will be understood.
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If there are so many people on this board unwilling or unable to have a civil and balanced discussion about important issues, then I shan't bother to post here any more.
To the great relief of many of you, no doubt.
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Author: Dee
Date: 2004-11-30 13:31
The Boehm system eliminated the need for most cross fingerings (and yes it is sort of a misnomer). Some are still used in the occasional trill or in unusual situations. The one that comes to mind is trilling Ab to Bb above the staff. You finger the Ab as usual and trill the Bb by moving the index finger of the left hand. It gives a somewhat stuffy Bb but in a trill that is not noticeable and it is certainly far easier to trill that way than using any of the other fingering combinations for Ab and Bb.
Maybe the term "cross fingering" refers to the fact that you leave one (or more) of the sequential holes open therefore "crossing over" it to get the flat or sharp needed?
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2004-11-30 14:06
The one big crossed fingering in a non-boehm style clarinet (seen in german clarinets of today), is what would be considered throat F (or F4).
In a german clarinet it is . .
T o x o | o o o
In a boehm clarinet it is . .
T o o o | o o o
This makes so many scales possible without having to "flip" any fingers.
Another finger flop avoided would be going from chalemeau A to Bb
German A to Bb
T x x x | x x o to T x x x | x o x The ring and middle finger are "flipped"
Boehm A to Bb
T x x x | x x o to T x x x | o x o Just raise one finger.
Perhaps this "cross fingering" term means the idea of flipping and swithcing fingers.
Alexi
US Army Japan Band
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2004-11-30 14:37
I more nearly agree with Dee's description, in that I've always considered the alternative use of a finger on each hand to achieve the same note as the "cross" [ACROSS FROM, such as the little-finger keying] , and the "leaving-open" a fingered tone hole between closed holes [such as the B nat/F# et al] as "fork fingerings [sim to the tines of a fork] . Will look [and recommend it to all] in our good books and tutors to see how the old pros defined these terms. Just a bit of early morning "gasoline for this fire" . Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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Author: ron b
Date: 2004-11-30 16:58
Re: some (questionable?) German fingerings mentioned above.
Personally, I would avoid using T o x o|| o o o for first space F. It's awkward and it just isn't a good sounding note. Maybe there's a rare occassion to use it but I don't know of any, not as a 'real' note anyway.
First space F = T x[2nd side 'trill'] o o | o o o is standard, requires no 'flipping' and transitions quite well to other notes.
A to Bb (below staff) = T x x x || x x o then trill using RH sliver key.
(**Boehm: T x x x||x x o to T x x x||o x o , by the way, is A to B - not A to Bb**).
Above staff Ab to Bb = T,R x x x(G#)||o o o to T,R x o x(G#)|| o o o (L middle finger trills) is passable but, as Dee says, you use it only to trill and it's slight stuffiness is not too noticeable. I know Dee refers to Boehm but both systems have more in-common characteristics than not.
r b
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2004-12-01 02:15
Thanks Ron B. I only know the fingerings that the girl in my chamber ensemble uses (she uses a German clarinet). So I thought that those were considered the "primary" fingerings as those are what was taught to her "primarily" by her old teacher. It drives me up a wall that she won't open up to trying other fingerings. These would definitely have helped her in some pieces she's playing in this winter.
Alexi
US Army Japan Band
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Author: ron b
Date: 2004-12-01 04:17
Alexi -
I just passed those fingerings (and cautions) along in case there are German system players who'd like to compare them to their own findings and experience. Feedback/Input I'm sure anything I may offer can be improved, altered and augmented. That's how we learn and, "hopefully", improve.
The fingerings your ensemble player is using will "work", sure. We can get almost anything to "work" But, do we want to sit back and leave it at that? Most of us are creatures of habit, including myself, and it sometimes takes a good bit of effort, for me anyway, to change even when I know it will improve things. Did I mention stubborness? I have a pretty good measure of that too and just conferring with other Albert players, playing (jammin') with 'em, listening/watching and generally just having fun making music together has helped me immeasureably. If she could find another German system player or two to play with I'm sure she'd make some happy discoveries of her own too.
[I just had a passing thought. Some if those fingerings might be fine with a Simple System. If I can get my simple system out, next day or two, and try some I'll get back to this thread and mention what happened.]
rb
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