 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: 3dogmom
Date: 2004-11-21 18:18
Allen, I have a few comments from another perspective. I thought a new topic was warranted.
When I was in college, my clarinet teacher was extremely inappropriate with me. I did not know how to handle this and, as it was some time ago, the concept of "sexual harassment" did not exist. The other clarinet professor offered longer lessons provided certain "conditions" were met. I have no doubt that, from their perspective, it was probably in fun. As a young girl, however, they practically stopped me from playing the clarinet. I learned to wear baggy clothes and try to laugh off what was said.
I was definitely more nervous about my playing because of the environment created by all this talk.
My point - sometimes what is said by an adult male can sound a lot differently to a young girl. I have no doubt that damage can, and often is, caused by speaking before facts are known. You can never know what goes on between two people. And gentlemen, sometimes the young ladies you teach are uncomfortable being in a closed room with you, even though your intentions are quite honorable. Nothing personal, it's just the way the world is.
Sue
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Author: psychotic lil clarinet girl (don't as
Date: 2004-11-21 18:42
wow, that's terrible... Why didn't you just quit lessons with them? Get a female teacher?
And I don't feel uncomfortable in a room with my teacher... Primarily, because I trust him... But I also know that if something did happen, I would take the music stand and beat him over the head with it and then run out of the room... And plus, there are other people in the band room... It's a pretty safe environment...
Post Edited (2004-11-21 18:48)
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Author: 3dogmom
Date: 2004-11-21 18:55
Those were the two clarinet professors at my university. This was quite some time ago, and I would never have dreamed of saying anything about it to anybody. Times have changed, fortunately. Sounds like you have your head on straight, I probably didn't.
Sue
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2004-11-21 18:56
A lot of teachers are now more careful about things like this. Many won't have lessons anywhere aside from a public place (for instance meeting in a practice room in college or something). Also, I know my ex-girlfriend's teacher would sometimes have lessons at his house, but not unless his wife was there. And would not have lessons at a student's house unless there was another adult there.
Sometimes even as a teacher you have to cover yourself in case a student decides to put out a false claim as well.
Alexi
US Army Japan Band
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Author: ohsuzan
Date: 2004-11-21 21:24
<<This was quite some time ago, and I would never have dreamed of saying anything about it to anybody. Times have changed, fortunately.>>
Sue, what you are saying is very true. I wonder how many of us women "of a certain age" had some sort of untoward experience with a male teacher, doctor, or boss? I think some of the guys would be surprised to know how many women used to (I hope -- "used to", but don't anymore) encounter stuff like this. I never had a bad music teacher, but I had one boss who was a piece of work!
When I first came to work in his office, the other women took me out to lunch and said, "Watch out for *******." I was so naive, I didn't know what they meant. But it didn't take me long to find out.
Just let me say, you didn't ever want to get caught alone with him in an elevator. Or work late. Or travel with him. ![[mad]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smilie9.gif)
He was a real creep, and if he were doing that sort of stuff today, he'd be in jail . . . or on the Supreme Court! ![[whoa]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smilie10.gif)
Susan
Post Edited (2004-11-21 21:29)
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2004-11-21 21:50
It's happened all too much. I remember when I was in college it (supposedly) happening to a fellow clarinetist.
She kept quiet about it - didn't even ever tell the guy who ended up being her husband who was another Clarinet student at the time.
Personally I feel that if proven the teacher should be fired by the University on the spot. It's a truly gross display of unprofessionalism, tackyness, abuse of power, etc.
And it happens all too often.
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Author: psychotic lil clarinet girl (don't as
Date: 2004-11-21 21:51
have y'all ever heard of mace? Ya know, the stuff you're supposed to carry around in your purse and spray in the creeps eyes... Or, if you have your clarinet handy, beat 'em over the head with that... Although, it would mean the death of your clarinet... But still, better than being taken advantage of... And then, YOU CAN SUE THEM FOR DAMAGING YOUR CLARINET! That would be great...
But I agree, there are many women "and not just of a certain age" that have been taken advantage of... So, it's good to always be precatious about stuff such as clarinet lessons with a male teacher, being alone in a room (anywhere) with a perverted boss, etc...
So... Just remember to always keep bricks and mace in your purse and you'll be just fine...
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2004-11-21 22:03
But with Mace you can run into liability issues.
If the teacher is being inappropriate, bring a tape recorder and leave it on in your music bag.
Catch the (*&(*& in the act, then make the institution pay for your therapy.
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Author: peking moon
Date: 2004-11-21 22:50
I'm in my late 20's and was kissed by my first college professor about 8 years ago. He had a history of being a "ladies man" and all the students would kid around about it. My first college was a smaller music department in a NJ state college with only one clarinet teacher. As far as I know he still teaches there...anyway, I had left the school but continued lessons when the incident occurred. Since I was no longer a student at the school and was above the legal age - no incident was filed. Considering he was at least 3 times my age - it was a gross experience.
I quit playing for 6 months.
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2004-11-21 23:25
Tape recorder only if there has been a problem and you are documenting it. Not for "possible", etc
Only if real.
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Author: allencole
Date: 2004-11-22 01:07
This kind of behavior was pretty rampant in the late 70's and early 80's when I was in college. My first professional bandleader was a classmate of mine, a pianist/singer who doubled on clarinet. While we were on tour with the college band, she was propositioned by the director and it upset her considerably. She immediately dropped band and wrote him a letter telling him why. Of course, she was taking on herself a penalty that he should've received.
Unfortunately, this is not (and should not be IMO) a matter of law when all parties are 18 or over and the relationship is consensual. In fact, a number of student-teacher romances that I was privy to in college blossomed into successful marriages.
I think that the best way I've seen to handle this is a requirement that faculty members report to their department chairs any extraprofessional relationship with a student. This can help administrators be on the lookout for signs of favoritism. coercion or other unprofessional behavior. Today, I believe that a number of schools have strict hands-off policies, but I'm not sure how effectively they're enforced, or if they have been legally challenged.
At my college, an assistant department chair was blackmailing an office secretary into an illicit sexual relationship, which eventually led to her attempting to stab him in the office. She lost her job, but he was never investigated or disciplined that I know of--probably in exchange for not preferring criminal charges against her. Interestingly, this ass't chair had been noted for his self-appointed role as morals enforcer among the students. Sadly, everyone learned about the attempted stabbing, but few learned what prompted it.
Back then EVERYBODY had a squeeze, and the rewards for the student involved could be considerable. (enter sexual discrimination) One faculty member had a student follow him to the college to continue a sexual relationship that began when he was her high school band director.
So yes, I would believe almost anything. But who can deal with this most effectively, and how?
Allen Cole
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Author: 3dogmom
Date: 2004-11-22 01:24
I don't know the answer. In my situation, there was no way out other than transferring to another school. None of the stuff I experienced was physical, it was all verbal. However, apparently the male teachers had been talking about me, because when I went to registration one semester even the teachers I didn't know were aware of me and were talking trash to me. I really was just an average girl, so I'm sure I mustn't have been the only one.
So who do you complain to when you realize it's your college career on the line? And they're all in on the joke? As long as someone wants to remain in a particular school, they've got to deal with the same department, good or bad. Whistle blowing is an option that comes with consequences.
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2004-11-22 01:41
You leave the school and then sue em. Most colleges will fire a faculty member who harrases students - sexual harrasement is not tollerated at all as schools don't want lawsuits on their hands.
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2004-11-22 03:37
Quote:
3Dog, why didn't you have your dad have a "come to god" with the teacher? I can't speak for 3dog, but for most people, things are clearer in hindsight. So many people when they get into that situation, they don't know WHAT to do. It's only AFTER that situation has happened do they start to figure out what to do should it happen again, or what they COULDV'E done.
That's why we practice certain things (anything really - from our scales to sparring in a karate class). So should the occasion arise and we find ourselves in a situation where we CAN use it, we do.
Alexi
US Army Japan Band
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Author: allencole
Date: 2004-11-22 18:17
Then maybe the best thing that we can do in this thread is to try and develop a stategy to rebuff first-time advances while looking at a means of documenting or proving repeated advances. This is a thin line to walk, but there is a lot of collegiate experience to draw on here. Here are some ideas that might give us some talking points.
I would suggest that the first step in countering any advance is to ask for clarification. "What do you mean, exactly?" This to me would be the least confrontational and the most informative approach. I would imagine that most teachers--even at collegiate level--are probably going to begin sexual overtures with fairly subtle trial balloons. Likewise, a student might read something into a teacher's comments that isn't really there. A request for clarification confronts the aggressor with a choice between retreating or sticking his neck out. And it allows someone who is not an aggressor to clarify, apologize and reconsider the image he projects.
At this point, it is probably time to keep a diary. Do it in ink, do it in a book in which someone can't claim you added or removed pages, be detailed, and include dates, times, quotes. And make your entries the same day as the incidents! If there is a pattern of harassment, you want to include as much of that pattern as possible. You also want to record who you talked to about it and whatever else you might've done about it. You should also list anything at all that might be interpreted as retaliation against you by the aggressor. This is a good precaution against an 'old boys network'. If you do this correctly, it may actually be admissible as evidence in court. If nothing else, it would provide your lawyer a lot of info to work with.
As David pointed out, it might very well be smart to secretly tape the next few lessons. Whether you can use it legally or not, it might compromise an aggressor enough to discourage him from retaliating. Just be careful. Taping may be illegal in some circumstances (I'm recalling an incident with Texaco) so you don't want anyone else to know. A lawyer can advise you on when to reveal or use it.
This might also be good advice for a teacher who may have a conniving student. That happens less often, but it does happen.
One final bit of input. It's important to distinquish between one person's intent and another person's perception. This is the one area where sexual harassment law (and some other law as well) has gone horribly wrong. College students are supposed to be responsible adults, and as such you need to have a moral certaintly of what you're doing before you point the finger. This is why I think it's good to immedately question any perceived overture.
One question for those who have experience as faculty. Whistle-blowers are obviously very vulnerable. Is it better to report something immediately to administration, or should there be an attempt to establish a pattern or gather evidence first?
Allen Cole
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2004-11-22 19:19
It probably depends on what line is crossed. But there is a lot, lot less tolerance for it today than in the past.
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Author: Alseg
Date: 2004-11-22 20:52
A bulletin board in Human resources section of my hospital offers the following advise for such encounters:
"This conversation is uncomfortable"
or
"I am uncomfortable being touched/discussing this
(insert appropriate situation."
or
"I have difficulty with what is going on here"
The above are good first responses...the ACTION itself -- not the instigator-- mentioned, since it does not say "YOU are a jerk"
While such responses might fall under the category of 'psychospeak', it still is a non-confrontational mode of letting the person know that you are not accepting of the action.
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2004-11-22 22:10
Or, you could just say "ya know, they tried to take all of my dad's guns away, but I think he still has a few left in the basement. That legendary temper of his will get him put in jail - again; but you're a big professor, and I'm sure not afraid of a little buckshot, aren't you?"
This topic makes me angry.
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Author: 3dogmom
Date: 2004-11-22 23:31
I think David is quite correct in that things are not tolerated as much now, in any workplace. My time was about the same time as Allen Cole's, late 70s early 80s. It was apparently the manner in which young women were spoken to at the school, as I can't imagine I was the only one.
You know, it's funny, we weren't raised with the same sense of our personal rights that kids are now. I oddly still had respect for these people (how messed up is that) because of their musical ability and talent. There was just this annoying verbiage that kept getting in the way. It never occurred to me that anyone could stop what was happening to me or that it shouldn't be happening, and I never was taught about things like sexual harassment, the way students are now.
Of course, looking back, I should have transferred. Seriously, though, I doubt that anything would have come of whistle blowing because they were all guilty.
I suggest we stick, as Allen says, to trying to help the musicians coming along from repeating our mistakes and offering positive suggestions for situations that might arise. I would be happy to discuss the issue via email but am leery of getting off track in this thread.
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Author: growlingbunny910
Date: 2004-11-23 02:31
getting a female teacher might not always solve the problem in todays culture...............you still may run into harrasment or unwanted advances issues............
you just need to find a sincere
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Author: allencole
Date: 2004-11-23 02:50
Well, I'm glad that the tolerance level is lower now. Obviously the response that makes the strongest and most defensible statement is transferring. It's just such an injustice that the victim should have to walk away in order to solve a problem.
Allen Cole
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Author: ohsuzan
Date: 2004-11-23 03:08
<<. . . am leery of getting off track in this thread. >>
Sue,
Maybe I have misunderstood what it is you would rather not go into further. I guess maybe you're saying you don't want to rehash the things you might have done years ago, in light of today's standards. I understand that entirely. That was then, this is now. We grow too soon old, and too late smart.
But I do think this thread is germane to the general purpose of this board.
The fact of the matter is that there are still major orchestras (and probably some universities) which effectively refuse to hire or promote female musicians, or subject them to gender-specific intimidation (subtle or not so subtle) to an extent that they withdraw from the pursuit of mastery of their musical disciplines, or scale down their expectations.
As long as these things are happening, I don't see how a sharing of our experiences or a discussion of ways to help others avoid our mistakes is "off track".
I'd love to hear from some of the men here, about what they have or have not observed on the part of the "offenders" over the years in regard to the attitudes and behaviors Sue and I, and countless other women, have experienced.
I keep hearing that guys do a certain amount of "locker-room" talk. So, David, Allen, etc., have you ever been aware, guy to guy, of any male perpetrator of this sort of thing WHILE the behavior was going on? What sort of position does that put you in, when you observe or hear about it? Do men who know that something like this is going on have a responsibility to confront the offender(s) or bring the matter to the attention of an authority? Or do you believe this is basically an issue that only women can deal with?
Susan
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2004-11-23 04:52
Yup - sent a guy to Jail.
I would never stand by and not get involved if that's what needed to be done.
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Author: allencole
Date: 2004-11-23 07:40
As a student, I was aware of tons of this. Have had some friends get in trouble as high school band directors also. Have not been privy to experiences with colleagues other than what I've already related. (and I've never taught at the college level)
Most student-teacher relationships that I saw in college were consensual, and often initiated by the female student. Power, dominance, or whatever you want to call it is very attractive to a lot of women. Couple it with the ability to climb socially or to promote your career, and a lot of folks are onboard. Also remember that during my collegiate years, a lot of sex was bought with drugs.
The main issue that I saw was that it contributed to what I'll call 'a cult of the attractive.' Sex in the late 70's was so loose that it was like a group marriage with rotating partners doing what amounted to a sexual Paul Jones. Participants were insiders and there were considerable rewards. I've seen the same thing in office jobs. My primary complaint was that those who were not objects of desire sometimes got lesser treatment in their education than those who were in the loop. (interestingly, I recently heard a female professor express nostalgia for some facets of that situation)
Harassment or extortion of favors was the exception rather then the rule at that time, because there was big supply of the willing. However, this also had the effect of emboldening some of these men to pursue relations with girls who might be more of a challenge. My first bandleader was one such girl, because she was a bit older and had strong self-esteem. This is no doubt what made her a target for her faculty pursuer.
I have no doubt that notes were compared, and one of my teachers was open about it, even with male students. He once told me that when asked if he was married, his answer was "my wife is." I don't recall any locker-room talk to the girls involved at a time when I was in earshot, but that sort of talk did exist among male faculty and grad students, and sometimes with undergrads. I do recall being on a rescue squad where I saw ranking officers hitting on probationary members.
I can understand the tempations. When I heard that White House officials referred to Monica Lewinski as 'the stalker' it brought back a lot of memories. In most situations that I know the workings of, someone was taking advantage of a schoolgirl crush.
The problem is one of personal morality. It's just not kosher to add romance (or something baser) to a student-teacher relationship in a situation--like college--where the teacher has power over the student, or the ability to employ favoritism. This is why I like the idea of requiring faculty members to disclose these relationships.
I'll share my one temptation. I did some work with some high school kids during my second or third year or college, and got a letter from one of the girls that seemed to hint at a desire for more contact. I was SORELY tempted, and the age difference was only about three years, but I could not picture myself explaining it either the girl's father or to the professor that I was working with her under--a man who DID have scruples. I sometimes shudder to think how I would've responded to the kind of explicit offers that some of my profs were getting. The situation never repeated itself. As I got more into playing gigs, I moved away from working with kids and by time I started teaching I was clearly too old for anyone that age. But the memory of that previous temptation led me to adopt a "Dad" persona (as opposed to a 'big brother' or 'buddy') persona with my students.
Allen Cole
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2004-11-23 13:59
"Most student-teacher relationships that I saw in college were consensual, and often initiated by the female student."
Should be grounds for immediate dismissal. I have 2 friends who were both shattered by their sleazebag husbands (both Music Professors - one a Sax Prof and the other a Music Composition Prof) running off with their students.
It's wrong and I don't think they should still have a job to support their student/mistress with. Complete abuse of power.
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2004-11-23 14:10
DavidBlumberg wrote:
> Should be grounds for immediate dismissal.
I think that "it depends". I know a few profs (music & otherwise) that have married their students, some after divorcing their wives. I don't see anything especially wrong (in a social sense) with that with one proviso:
That the student was not a student of the professor when the dating started. That limits any "abuse of power" (not to say there wasn't an attraction during the times the student was with the teacher, but I believe that it shouldn't be acted upon during that time).
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Author: Brenda
Date: 2004-11-23 14:23
Harassment from teachers isn't always sexual either. The situation I witnessed along with my classmates in the early 70s was of two teachers who were also football coaches ganging up on a couple of boys in class, in front of all the students. They'd have them do pushups in front of the class and in other ways humiliate them. As others have mentioned here, in those days we were told to listen to our elders and not talk back, not that we had the right to speak out. And so none of us did. That allowed these brutes to continue bullying these kids whenever they felt like it.
Its a good thing that kids are being told to question inappropriate behaviour perpetrated by anybody, even teachers. These days it's not a bad idea to speak and behave as if someone is recording us, because many times we ARE being recorded or tracked, whether on the computer or by security cameras (or private investigators!). That helps keep our conduct above reproach.
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Author: Don Poulsen
Date: 2004-11-23 14:37
Just recently, one of the band directors at my daughter's former high school was charged with inappropriate behavior with one of the female students. He eventually plead guilty.
The kicker? The band parents and students were planning to have a pre-sentencing party for him in a local park! It was cancelled only because the local media got wind of it by getting a copy of an email announcement. I suspect they rescheduled the party and avoided the media the second time by announcing it strictly through word of mouth.
In retrospect, I glad my daughter chose to play violin.
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2004-11-23 15:15
Agreed. The one's I was talking about had the affair, then left their wifes and the students were students at the time of the affair.
Both had kids too!
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Author: allencole
Date: 2004-11-23 15:32
>I have 2 friends who were both shattered by their sleazebag husbands
>(both Music Professors - one a Sax Prof and the other a Music >Composition Prof) running off with their students.
To me, this is a different issue. I think that the behaviors we're looking at are as follows:
1 - Coercing or enticing a student into an extraprofessional relationship
2 - Taking advantage of a student with a crush.
3 - Improperly rewarding, neglecting, or punishing a student based on personal relations or sexual dynamics.
The first is clearly an abuse of power. The second deals more with weakness, opportunism, or irresponsibility. The third I think is an issue of professional corruption.
The public humiliation thing is definitely a problem, but seems pretty cut and dried to me. Being committed publicly it can't really be secret. I think that our chief dilemma in this issue is its characteristic secrecy, and the reluctance of aggressors to be explicit enough to get them disciplined.
I have quite a few band director stories, but nothing as outrageous as the pre-sentencing party. Could the parents be any more clueless?
Allen Cole
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Author: ohsuzan
Date: 2004-11-23 16:55
<< The first is clearly an abuse of power. The second deals more with weakness, opportunism, or irresponsibility. The third I think is an issue of professional corruption. >>
Allen is making an important distinction here. To me, there is a difference of *kind*, not degree, between matters that rise to the level of illegal sexual harassment and other behavior that is simply misguided or tawdry or just plain stupid.
I'm not sure we can criminalize the latter (can we criminalize stupidity?), unless one of the individuals involved is a member of some protected group (e.g., underage, disabled, institutionalized, or in a fiduciary relationship).
The criminal aspect arises when one person (or group of persons) intentionally uses their power -- be it knowledge, or position, or physical strength -- in a sexual way to undercut, or injure, or suppress, or intimidate their target.
We have come to understand, for example, that rape has nothing to do with sex and everything to do with power. I think it's the same equation for illegal harassment. It has nothing to do with an attempt, however inappropriate, to form a relationship, nor even with a situation (perhaps like Allen's #2, above?) that is basically about cheap thrills.
Illegal sexual harassment is about using sex as a weapon, with the motivation to injure. Gender bias, I think, is a particularly pernicious subtype of this, which taken to an extreme, not only keeps those of us of the "wrong" gender out of orchestras, prestigous universities, and high-level teaching positions, but puts us in burkas and forbids us from driving cars.
So, having said that, I would say that a teacher/boss who repeatedly comes on to an adult student/employee, despite having been told to buzz off, is treading on criminal ground. But an adult student and teacher who explore a mutual attraction are probably guilty of nothing more than bad behavior, and maybe not even that, depending on the circumstances.
I worry than when we get into criminalizing what used to be called "sin", we risk trivializing the truly criminal behavior that does occur.
My (more than) .02.
Susan
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Author: peking moon
Date: 2004-11-23 17:01
"Just recently, one of the band directors at my daughter's former high school was charged with inappropriate behavior with one of the female students. He eventually plead guilty."
DON - OMG - Did your daughter go to a HS in NJ? That school has a history of band directors that cross the line with their UNDERAGED students.
The one that was there for about 20 years had an affair with a student back in the early 80's and his wife kicked him out of the house. He slept in his van parked behind the school for a couple weeks. He was my band director in the early 90's, saying stuff like "lets start at measure 69, thats a sexy number" Once, my senior year we were playing a piece called "La Virgin de Macarena" that has a clarinet cadenza. I was out that day, but it was reported to me that the band couldn't practice the piece because the "virgin" (meaning me) was not there.
Of course, this loser left after I had graduated...a couple music teacher came and went...and then most recently a 25 year old guy came and started an inappropriate relationship with a 16 year old girl. Sending her dirty emails - etc. And it turns out this is NOT the first time. He was released from a school in PA for similar grievances.
Post Edited (2004-11-23 18:31)
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2004-11-23 18:17
Cafeful Jennifer Lynn!
I'm not a lawyer but it would seem that when you mention, on a public BB, a specfic public institution and include a class of people that taught at that school during a certain period such as "Did your daughter go to Raritan HS? That school has a history of pervy band directors" you may be opening up yourself for legal action.
HRL
Post Edited (2004-11-23 18:19)
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Author: peking moon
Date: 2004-11-23 18:20
Gee - that should be more to your liking...now I've removed the RANDOM name of the school and just put the STATE instead. A LOT more discrete. However - you seemed it neccessary to patronize me by repeating my POST IN YOUR POST! DUH DUH DUH!!!
My band director is retired...and the other has been arrested. No slander there.
All these pervert teachers should be exposed. They do harm!!!
Notice that in my previous post I did NOT mention the college I went to where my 66 year old teacher KISSED me on the mouth. Maybe because he still teaches at the institution!!!
Post Edited (2004-11-23 18:32)
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2004-11-23 18:39
Hank is just trying to be helpful.
IANAL either, but:
If there's a public history of convicted people, you're telling no new tales. If there's no history (or just one and you've accused a string of people) then you've crossed the line. "It was reported to me" just doesn't cut it without corroboration.
Just because a band director you're seeming to accuse is retired makes it no less slanderous.
You can't just go and say things about particular people or places without any consequences.
Post Edited (2004-11-23 18:42)
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2004-11-23 18:44
peking moon [please refer to people by their "pen names" rather than their given names. Mark C. ],
I beg your pardon but I was in no way being patronizing but so as to quote you accurately, used the words that you posted on this BB.
If you wish to discuss the possibility of me changing my post in light of your edits, I'd be happy to discuss the subject with you off-line. If not, then my post stands as submitted.
HRL
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Author: growlingbunny910
Date: 2004-11-23 19:00
wow.... a lot of activity on this post. I wonder what that means?
ok, my 2 cents.........a paid consultant used by a HS marching band went and got friendly with a few of the female band members.........one became pregnant and she was underage, so now this person is in court. this person was also a teacher in the school system, which makes the offense that much worse..............................................
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2004-11-23 19:10
Rather than getting into personal histories or anecdotes about different things that have happened in your area, I'd much rather this thread stayed more general purpose - how to handle the situation (both students and teachers - both can have problems with the other), how to stay away or defuse situations before anything goes awry, etc. .
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Author: 3dogmom
Date: 2004-11-23 19:15
to Ohsuzan, what I meant by "getting off track in this thread" was a lousy way of saying that I was concerned about the possible young folks reading our horror stories. Advice based on experience can be helpful, but just didnt' want to get graphic.
Now that you're mentioning this, my dusty memory came up with an inappropriate high school band director too - were they all this way back then? Stupid comments and whistles to the girls when they wore skirts, etc. Boy, have things changed.
Sue
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Author: psychotic lil clarinet girl (don't as
Date: 2004-11-23 22:01
ok... let the little one speak now...
Although verbal abuse is extremely offensive, especially when it is someone you look up to, it's still nothing compared to actual rape or sexual abuse... verbal abuse just makes you pissed off, whereas sexual abuse and/or rape leads to depression...
So, which one is this thread going to talk about?
Well, my advice on verbal abuse is of course (as mentioned above) a tape recorder (Which Mr. David Blumberg suggested)... Or an eyewitness, and you could get the person fired... But of course, since we do have freedom of speech, I dunno if this would help much...
As far as dealing with authority taking actual advantage of you... My advice is:
1. Don't be naive enough to think you'll get in trouble if you don't do something (that you know is blatently wrong), or sometimes they'll say not to tell anyone or you'll get in trouble... Of course, none of y'all are 7 and 8 years old, so hopefully you have enough common sense not to believe that...
2. Tell someone as soon as something happens, don't hesitate in doing so...
3. In the case of that person not believing you, then you have to get into the technical stuff... (if you want the guy caught) Somehow videotape the fiend in action...
4. Get as far away from the person as possible (If you can't get him caught)
5. If you can't get away from the person and no one believes you, then fight back...
6. If you're not strong enough to fight back, don't be afraid to hit that person over the head with something or throw something at them...
7. If all else fails, you can always try to get the police to secretely document it...
That's all the advice I can think of... Just, it's best to try to avoid compromising situations... If the teacher/authority gets too close to you RUN! oh yeah...
8. RUN!!!!!!!
Sometimes we don't have enough common sense to do such obvious things... Mainly because we're scared and naive, but just keep your mind clear and have common sense...
Post Edited (2004-11-23 22:03)
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2004-11-23 23:07
Mary, don't think for a second that Verbal Abuse, Guilt, etc. doesn't lead to Depression either.
It does.
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Author: psychotic lil clarinet girl (don't as
Date: 2004-11-24 00:45
yes, of course it does... Anything can lead to depression, if need be... I'm just saying that sexual abuse victims and whatnot would be more prone to depression than verbal abuse victims... It just depends on the person... I mean, I guess it depends on the situation, but in any case mainly it is the person that controls their own thoughts and feelings... Choosing whether they are going to be depressed or not... AND YES, you can choose to be depressed or not depressed...
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2004-11-24 02:17
Mary,
I'm not an MD and my Ph.D. is not in Psychology but I don't happen to agree with "Choosing whether they are going to be depressed or not... AND YES, you can choose to be depressed or not depressed..." I don't believe that clinical depression is something that one can always voluntarily control.
Check out http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clinical_depression
This link or a similar one might give you a better understanding of depression.
HRL
Post Edited (2004-11-24 02:54)
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Author: psychotic lil clarinet girl (don't as
Date: 2004-11-24 02:24
Well according to that website, I've had clinical depression for about 4-5 months... I'm now over it, because I realized that being depressed is a waste of free time and energy... But, (depending on how much seratona a person has in their brain) it is controllable... The person with the depression has to see that themself... That it is something that they can control and that it shouldn't just overtake their lives...
My "depression" distracted from my clarinet playing... Partly why I realized it's not worth it...
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2004-11-24 02:37
Hi Mary,
No one could argue that self-help is a terrific cure for many things. That's great that you were able to make a difference in your own situation.
However, what you said above is something quite different. Choosing not to be depressed isn't always possible for many individuals. I have known several people that could not overcome their feelings of depression no matter how hard they tried (the results were not good; illness, institutionalization, and even in several cases, suicide).
It's not always as easy as just saying, no!
HRL
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2004-11-24 02:43
psychotic lil clarinet girl (don't ask) wrote:
> Yeah, well it's due to the lack of seratona in their brain
> then...
That's one of the many causes of clinical depression.
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Author: allencole
Date: 2004-11-24 05:49
Interesting. Tonight's episode of Law & Order: SVU dealt with a sexual relationship between professor and student, and accusations of rape. No verdict given at the end. Viewers invited to vote on the NBC website. This one appears to have been ripped from the headlines concerning Kobe Bryant.
It does point out that we have an atmosphere today which can enable false accusations. Largely because of increasing awareness of sexual abuse, and increased sexual activity and awareness among younger kids. What precautions, if any, are teachers here taking to avoid this potential problem?
Allen Cole
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Author: 3dogmom
Date: 2004-11-24 11:26
Always leave the door ajar. Always have someone know that you are going to be with a particular student during a certain time frame.
Sue
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Author: Brenda
Date: 2004-11-24 11:48
Some teachers will use French doors on their studios, the ones that have windows in them, or keep the door open. We use these doors on all our offices where I work and they're great for keeping conversations private but anyone passing by can see who's in the office. Of course clarinet playing will always be heard, but that's the point of a lesson anyway, isn't it?
Conduct the lessons in an area that's not isolated, preferably near where others are moving about.
Keep an open invitation for a parent or friend to attend with the student.
Keep the conversation professional at all times.
Have a "no touch" policy. A CBC radio program was explaining the situation of teachers and coaches in Canada regarding the possibility of accusations of inappropriate touching. The bottom line was either have a no touching policy, or in the case of elementary teachers or coaches of certain sports, a policy of "shoulders and above".
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Author: 3dogmom
Date: 2004-11-24 19:33
On this "no touching" policy: I teach in an elementary school, in an economically challenged town with a lot of transient children due to public housing, foster care, etc. When some of these kids come to school it's the best part of their day. They don't look forward to school vacations.
When these kids see you, they hug you. We hug back when hugged. At my spring concert, every single child coming off the risers hugged me. It's just the way the kids in this town are. I teach here because I feel I am really making a difference. I'm very lucky.
I know that some wouldn't consider that appropriate, but it's how we all function at my school, and it seems to work for us.
Sue
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2004-11-24 20:40
Sue - I wouldn't have it any other way. If a kid hugs you (and hopefully there are others around) not hugging back would be the equal of rejecting the hug.
There are lots of thugz on the street who weren't hugged enough as kids.
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Author: RWW
Date: 2004-11-24 21:58
I didn't see anyone say it, so I wish to add: The number 1 most important rule if you perceive you are being treated inappropriately is to tell the offender to stop it. You can elaborate as to why if you wish, but no matter who you report it to later, if you didn't inform the offending person they were doing something wrong, and they continued the offensive bahavior, you will have an uphill battle getting them appropriately punished.
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Author: allencole
Date: 2004-11-25 19:20
I think that having a window somewhere in the studio is desirable and have suggested it to stores where I teach. I feel fairly safe in that am in my mid-40's, always teach in schools and stores, and am not a touchy-feely person.
Most false accusations are going to come from students who are either angry about something, or who have some sort of mental/emotional problems. So this makes them the exception rather than the rule.
When I see that a student has some sort of learning or emotional disabilty, or something behavioral is going on that threatens to strain relations, I generally request that a parent sit in. This is not always the ideal situation, but it does allow parents to see how I operate. There are only a couple of things I do that would require me to touch a student or vice versa, and it's nice to have a parent present for that.
Just from what I've seen in my town, there's no substitute for an ounce of prevention. I don't know if a 100% no-touch policy would work, but a 98% one doesn't cramp my style at all. (Of course, I'm not dealing with small kids in need of hugs)
Allen Cole
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