 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: psychotic lil clarinet girl (don't as
Date: 2004-11-17 01:46
Yeah, in lesson today... I was sightreading something by Brahms (forget what it is)... But anyways, my teacher made me cry for whatever reason... The whole lesson I was nailing everything my mid-state music, scales, etc... and then sight reading came along... and I was doing fine until this one piece and then he got really irritated with me... And I didn't mean to cry, but I started crying... and I'm really weird because I laugh when I cry, so I was just laughing/crying non-stop...
Oh what a cruel evil teacher I have... HAHA! j/k... lol... but still, I don't know why I randomly started crying...
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Author: Bnatural
Date: 2004-11-17 02:04
it happens sometimes, we all have our times when emotions run a bit high and it just comes out at strange moments... i wouldn't worry about it, i'd bet he had just been having a long day and what he said just came across incorrectly
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2004-11-17 14:33
Brahms can be very sad.
Next lesson, keep calm, bring out the sadness in the music and make *him* cry.
![[tongue]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smilie6.gif)
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2004-11-17 14:38
It's your hormones. Don't worry, you'll outgrow it. Brahams' music is pretty, but not THAT sad.
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Author: William
Date: 2004-11-17 14:47
Hmmm............ever consider the trombone???
(LOL--your postings are always, umm..., interesting)
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2004-11-17 15:20
"bring out the sadness in the music and make *him* cry."
Or you can always use your clarinet in other ways to make him cry  J/K
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2004-11-17 23:14
You put too much pressure on yourself to please him and when he wasn't pleased you broke down.
Try your best to play well but don't put your life on the line to do it.
0-----------------------
"and then he got really irritated with me"
0-------------------------
Unless you are a performance major there is no reason why he should have gotten "really upset" with you.
Try hard, play well, but keep it light.
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Author: 3dogmom
Date: 2004-11-17 23:20
Good teachers don't express their irritation with their students. It is our job to guide, educate, and inspire. I know myself that if I even start to feel that way that it is me who has the problem, not the students I am responsible for.
Besides, I'm with the hormone theory. An extremely underrated problem. Try to put it (and him) behind you. So to speak.
Sue
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Author: allencole
Date: 2004-11-18 18:36
Let's get a grip here. We are starting to put words in Mary's mouth and make unwarranted assumptions. It's like watching people analyze the lyrics to a Steely Dan song.
Mary didn't say "really upset", she said "really irritated." I see a matter of considerable degree between the two, and Mary has given us nothing to indicate that her original choice of words was not correct.
It is Mary who was upset, and we can't be sure that her teacher's irritation was the #1 stimulus here.
Now, I have two complaints to address to adult posters in this and similar threads.
#1 - A little irritation now and then can be an important stimulus to students as they go through their own ups and downs both in effort and attitude. It is as important here as it is in sports coaching and in some cases, a displaying some irritation could stave off an impending need to tell that same student that it's time to part ways. While the former involves some negative reinforcement, it is also an affirmation that the teacher still has faith in the student. And although the latter can be done with outright affection, it would still be a glaring vote of 'no confidence' that cannot be changed by all the candy coating in the world.
I think that Sue would be correct in a lot of specific situations, but her sweeping generality does not stand, and could--if left unchallenged and unqualified--be harmful to Mary and other young students on this BB.
Which leads me to complaint #2 for adults here -
Every time a young student comes on this board with a teacher complaint of some kind I see two primary things.
First, adults--including people who say that they themselves teach, immediately criticizing the kid's teacher as if they knew both the student, the teacher, and all the facts. You'd think that they were vying for the business themselves! Perhaps some of these people have had experience with teachers in the past, but I find it hard to believe that they have any experience with children. I have reread Mary's original post several times, and not sure that she's even complaining about her teacher. So David's (Blumberg, that is) and Sue's comments are even less justified than in some past incidents I have seen. Their comments weren't severe--they simply had no basis to blame or criticize Mary's teacher based on "got really irritated."
Second, is what I DON'T see. QUESTIONS about specifics of the incident from those who decide to blame the teacher--even when Mary doesn't seem to. (and Mary, you quite welcome to clarify any of the questions that am presenting)
Two good things could come out of this foolishness:
1 - Positive vs. negative reinforcement could be a fascinating area of discussion. The lines to be drawn are fine and I think that this could be an interesting discussion for students as well as teachers. Perhaps this could be a good thread to pursue.
2 - We could all try to act a little more responsibly towards the children and teenagers to come here looking for information, advice or just a sounding board. The first two replies gave good advice that assumed little or nothing. Then came the hormone issue. (while I personally agree, a 'maybe' might've been nice to insert) Then a little joke. Then--the TEACHER did it!
Anyone who wants to pursue the teacher angle is free to, but why not ask Mary HOW he expressed his irritation? What specifically did he express irritation with? What's the piece for...and what were they trying to accomplish...and after how long...? Was his irritation at performace, effort, or attitude? Maybe Mary just came here to blow of some steam after a tough day.
But ultimately, let's not sit on too high a horse in judgement of band directors and private teachers who we do not know. The only thing that we can assume about any of these individuals is that they're making themselves available to kids, and they're not getting rich doing it. We do not need to imply, based on miniscule information, that they "have a problem." I think that the childrens' parents are better equipped to form opinions and make decisions in this area. Do we want our input to prejudice this?
We would do better to question the students and engage them in discussion, than to give them blind advice. We would also set an important example for them.
Allen Cole
Post Edited (2004-11-18 18:47)
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2004-11-18 19:06
Really "irritated" and really "upset" is nitpicking B.S.
The teacher lost his cool from what she described. And to me no, it isn't as acceptable as sports coaching.
I'm sure you can think up a #3 and #4 complaint Allen, maybe you were rushed?
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2004-11-18 19:22
DavidBlumberg wrote:
> I'm sure you can think up a #3 and #4 complaint Allen, maybe
> you were rushed?
Please, let keep everything from getting really personal. Both parties.
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Author: Dori
Date: 2004-11-18 20:15
This thread has gotten rather passionate!
I think it's important to note Mary said "evil teacher" and joking in the same line. Since I'm the one who encouraged her to vent here, I'd like to address Mary's feelings.
Mary - From your various posts I can see you are a sensitive and caring person. No one likes to hear criticism, especially when you are trying so hard. As others pointed out, hormones play a big role here. So it's not hard to imagine feeling like crying. I also have trouble controlling my emotions. It's something that takes effort and time to conquer. Just accept the fact that sometimes it's just "one of those days".
Now to David Speigelthal- Very astute of you to recognize the influence of hormones. However, your comment "You'll outgrow it", was...well, typical of a male. <g> As a female, Mary has a few decades of hormonal swings to go through before "outgrowing it".
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Author: 3dogmom
Date: 2004-11-18 21:06
I would like to clarify that I certainly, based on Mary's insightful posts in the pasts, do not consider her a child. I agree that sometimes we ALL pass judgment way too quickly and I do not want to appear critical of a situation with which I am not personally involved.
My feelings about teaching, however, still stand. I believe that positive reinforcement is a far more effective motivating tool. That is my opinion. It is not necessary that you agree with me. The difference may lie in the fact that I deal mostly with young players.
I had an unpleasant experience with my clarinet professor in college - it was not one I would care for any student to repeat.
The point about hormones is, it's okay to cry sometimes (guys too). Sorry if I offended anyone.
Sue
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Author: psychotic lil clarinet girl (don't as
Date: 2004-11-18 21:52
wow... you guys went pretty far into this... And thank you Sue for not considering me a child... But yeah, there is a difference between irritated and upset... I was just sight reading random pieces out of his book thingamajig, and on that particular one he seemed to be getting irritated... Which is um, not really that bad... And so, I have no clue why I started crying, because he had shown signs of slight irratation with my playing in the past...
Question for y'all... Have any of y'all randomly cried during a lesson? Or better yet, A CONCERT! OR, A RECITAL! MWUAHAHA! that would just be... wow... haha... funny...
But yeah, kinda just posted that to vent off some steam/ figure out why the heck I started crying... I don't understand it myself...
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2004-11-18 22:18
a 16 yr old will usually cry a lot easier than a 19 yr old, 22 yr old and 25 yr old.
No idea of how old Mary is (I'd figure 16). Even so, I still think it was Mary who put too much importance on pleasing and that was what set her off.
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Author: 3dogmom
Date: 2004-11-18 22:39
Sorry - but I think way too much is being assumed here and I would suggest that we leave this topic alone.
Sue
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Author: ohsuzan
Date: 2004-11-18 22:44
Yes, a person can be too eager to please, and thus take any hint of criticism too much to heart.
On the other hand, some of us (talking about myself here) are so self-critical to start with that we can sometimes barely function -- we are fearful of offending the world with our presence, our thoughts, or, God forbid, our playing.
I have had the unfortunate experience of finding myself unable to play in front of a teacher, for fear of criticism. It's the musical equivalent of being tongue-tied. In my emotional lexicon, criticism = not perfect and not perfect = no right to be taking up that particular space in the world.
I understand that this is not rational, but on an emotional level, that's where it is. Probably something from childhood. I EXPECT to be told I'm no good, useless, etc. But being able to play music is SO important to me that I am actually afraid to let anybody hear me play, for fear that by their harsh words or disdain they will take away from me the one deep joy that I have.
Thus, on the rare occasions that I have gone to a teacher or played in public, I have been literally on the verge of tears the whole time. It doesn't take much to push me over.
BTW, I don't have this problem when playing in a group -- only solo. Safety in numbers?
Susan
Hey, Mary -- you thought you were the only psycho on the board?
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Author: psychotic lil clarinet girl (don't as
Date: 2004-11-19 00:21
aw... I'm sorry... DON'T THINK THAT ABOUT YOURSELF! You're better than that, and I'm sure that other people think highly of you...
By the way... Maybe I'll start a psycho club on this Bboard... hehe... you can join if ya want... LOL!
Oh yeah, and I'm 15... lol
Post Edited (2004-11-19 00:21)
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Author: ohsuzan
Date: 2004-11-19 02:18
Yeah, David, but you're in Pennsylvania and I'm in Ohio!
S.
Post Edited (2004-11-19 02:21)
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2004-11-19 02:19
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But ultimately, let's not sit on too high a horse in judgement of band directors and private teachers who we do not know. The only thing that we can assume about any of these individuals is that they're making themselves available to kids, and they're not getting rich doing it. We do not need to imply, based on miniscule information, that they "have a problem." I think that the childrens' parents are better equipped to form opinions and make decisions in this area. Do we want our input to prejudice this?
--------------------------------------
Allen, there are private teachers out there who just waste their students time and talents. And there are Band Directors (more than just a few, LOTS) who shouldn't even be working with kids they are so abusive.
That doesn't apply in this particular thread as I assume that Mary's teacher is very good and she highly respects him.
But they are out there too. In a college setting or serious high school future performance major setting the ballgame is different as there is something at stake - the future of the students livelyhood. So for that the expections and penalties are expected to be high. But for the regular kid who just loves music and wants to get better there is a line that should be drawn.
Not saying that the teacher crossed the line, just that she probably took the situation too much to heart.
And yes, if asked I'll give my opinion which I have 22 years of high end teaching/performing to back it up with.
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Author: psychotic lil clarinet girl (don't as
Date: 2004-11-19 02:37
Yes, I do highly respect my clarinet teacher....
What I found weird though was my band director found out that I cried during my lesson and he was like "you should pay him double he's doing his job"... " Since he made you cry, it means you'll do anything it takes not to cry again (which means practicing more and whatnot, BUT I WAS SIGHTREADING).."
Anyways, I think my band director likes to see his students in pain and misery... HAHA J/K AGAIN! lol... he's more critical though than my clarinet teacher... Good thing I'm not in the saxaphone section! LOL!
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Author: Katrina
Date: 2004-11-19 04:43
FWIW, one of my students has cried several times in lessons. However, it's only when she is really really frustrated with HERSELF.
I really really don't like it when students cry. I'm there to make them better players, if that's what THEY want...it's not too hard to tell which ones really put effort into their playing.
That said, I _do_ try to motivate those students who don't seem to want to put as much time in. I make a deal with them to practice, say, twice before the next lesson, 30 minutes each. When this (inevitably) proves successful in having a lesson which makes them feel good, it usually results in increased practice. With some students, this approach requires multiple tries, however! And I do take into account that some of them really aren't going to want to play as precisely as I require...
All asides aside, I think it's ok that Mary cried in her lesson. Not that whatever the teacher did made her cry...but it can send a message to the teacher...
Katrina
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Author: allencole
Date: 2004-11-19 07:49
Sue hits the nail on the head here. We are still assuming way too much, and cannot seem to stop. Mary has already downgraded the story to be that her teaching was "seeming" to get annoyed. Even a further cry from 'upset' which was never a part of the actual story.
Consider that complaint #3
As a matter of fact, I AM rushed for time, but think that the subject of positive versus negative reinforcement would best go into a new thread where people could actually state more about where they're coming from and compare some actual experiences. If no one else wants to tackle it, I'll try to start one this weekend.
Allen Cole
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2004-11-19 12:06
It would be a good topic. I'm sorry if I got on the defense Allen, I felt I was getting attacked which I probably wasn't (maybe?).
I tend to err on the side of the student as the old addage "folks may forget what you said, but they always remember how you made them feel".
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2004-11-19 12:20
"Yeah, David, but you're in Pennsylvania and I'm in Ohio!"
------------------------------
ok, so you couldn't ride your bike to a lesson.....
Seriously though, the thing to do when approaching a teacher would be to be upfront with them about how you feel and why you haven't done so yet. Speak to a couple of local middle school band directors (also Elementary too but try M.S. first) and ask them for suggestions of who works really well with the students. Band Directors know quite well the scoop with local teachers as they work with their students. There are plenty of great teachers in Ohio as the Univ.'s produce them in quantity (Columbus, Cincinatti have major music schools).
Improving is a very rewarding feeling and also opens up a lot of great music to you.
Mary: sight-reading skills can can be developed. You need to do it daily. Buy a method book and sight read it (even if it's for Saxophone, Oboe, trumpet). Ask your band director for some 1st clarinet parts of new music and take them home and sight read them.
Get really good at your scale work too as that is also a key to being a good reader.
Avrahm Galpers "tone, technique and stacatto" is a great book for work like that (Mel Bay publisher).
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Author: allencole
Date: 2004-11-19 12:50
I understand, David. As I said in my post, I didn't see what you and Sue said as being severe. Both posts had good advice apart from the teacher thing, and I may have needed to acknowledge that more fully.
The problem is that just as we take Mary at her word, we run the risk that she will take us at our word--even though very little real information has been exchanged. I frequently see things like this in Yahoo groups which are populated by these kids.
My concern is that we are way beyond those Yahoo groups in terms of perceived credibility, and what we say (or even an exaggerated version of it) could be used to stir up or justify all kinds of things that we never anticipated.
This is an issue that I am very sensitive about not only here, but with my students. If I survive today's schedule, I'll share with you a couple of recent experiences that have driven the point home to me.
Allen Cole
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Author: frank
Date: 2004-11-19 15:35
Some students respond well to disciplinarian behavior, some don't. The key to being a good teacher then is in knowing what the student needs to help motivate them. I always responded well to high pressure, tough teachers. Did I always like to hear negative comments? No, but sometimes a student needs to be told the real deal, with no sugar coating. I agree with David B in regards to the level of student. A performance major is not the same as a "just for fun" student. Some teachers are truly awful and abusive. The negative comments should always be constructive and given to help the student learn. Remember folks, there are always two sides to any story!
On another note related, but unrelated to Mary...
I have seen and had students, mostly female, pull the "cry card". I always had a problem with that. Uncontrollable teenage emotions are one thing, but crying to get a result is not professional. It's a tough world out there and the music biz is a little unforgiving. I am not speaking of a 16 year old in band class, but adults, performance majors, auditioners, etc. I recently adjudicated an audition for a professional gig where one particular player lost the audition, then proceded to pack up and start to cry. In the parking lot, she told another adjudicator, who was trying to be helpful and understanding, that she was "never going to audition again... and going to quit". Mind you, this was only her 3rd audition. She was obviously upset with her playing, was extremely emotional and looking for someone to make her feel better. Tough beans. The point is, her attitude was awful as well as her playing that day. It was obvious to all of us that she got away with this sort of behavior in college and elsewhere. I have pity on her teacher. Sadly, her behavior could negatively affect the judges opinion of her if she chose to audition again, regardless of the way she might play. Most serious students grow out of the crying mindset and move forward. The ones who don't naturally fall by the wayside.
Post Edited (2004-11-19 20:42)
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Author: psychotic lil clarinet girl (don't as
Date: 2004-11-19 22:36
I don't cry on purpose... Today during clarinet choir, I was having trouble sightreading again, and I GOT IRRITATED WITH MYSELF! I just about cried again (while laughing because I'm weird like that)... I guess I just get so frustrated to the point of crying... I've been playing for a year and 3 or 4 months... So, yeah, since I'm in 10th grade expectations are high... But still, this was some easy stuff I was trying to sightread, and I just couldn't get it... SO FRUSTRATING!
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Author: 3dogmom
Date: 2004-11-20 03:21
You sound like a great person and one who is very insightful. Sometimes too much stuff can go on and then something triggers a blowout, it doesn't even have to be the thing itself that makes you lose it. It's just the final straw.
Keep plugging, and let yourself make a mistake once in a while. It sounds like you're doing a great job.
Sue
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Author: allencole
Date: 2004-11-21 10:05
On the subject of criticizing other teachers, here are a couple of experiences that have convinced me to be very careful.
#1 - A couple of years ago, one of my students informed me that her friend's piano teacher was trying to date her. Both girls were 18 but still in high school. The piano teacher is a friend that I've known for over 20 years. And because I know my student's friend from a community band, that piano teacher had remarked to me in the past that he was mystified why this young lady had not shown up for anything after her first lesson.
That piano student was actually a clarinetist, whose clarinet teacher was also a friend of ours. I called him to alert him to this and to see what he thought about it. We had never seen anything like this before. The student involved does have a propensity towards the dramatic, however. Her clarinet teacher told me that she had been called on the phone by the piano teacher and that nothing seemed out of place.
After this, I spoke to the piano teacher in question and told him that this was what I heard in regard to his student not returning. He told me that he always contacts students after their first lesson to see how things went, and if they are getting what they want. If nothing untoward happened, he now knows that such a call might be misinterpreted. If anything untoward DID happen, he now knows that word gets around. I honestly believe that nothing unprofessional was done.
Whether the piano student actually told my clarinet student that this was an overture, or whether my student simply jumped to a conclusion, I never determined. But the possible effects on this piano teacher are absolutely chilling.
Can any of you imagine having this said about you? And yes, I know plenty of people teaching both privately and in school who could justify such suspicions. (including most of my male college professors) But my student could have done something really awful--and irrevocable--having no firsthand knowledge herself.
#2 - Nothing burns me up more than seeing a student with 2 years or more of private lessons under their belt, but don't know half their scales and/or can't count rhythm at the eighth-note level. It was all I could do to hold my tongue when a student with 3 years of lessons came to me unable to get through her first-year band book unassisted.
Recently I was contacted by the mother of a home-schooled sax student who had four years of lessons under his belt. He played a little for me over the phone, and he had a good sound and decent rhythm, although making some pretty basic mistakes on a very easy piece. (a hymn) I asked him how many scales he knew and he said that he just knew the C scale. When he came to lessons, he could not count dotted-quarter/eighth patterns. Yet his mother told me that he had studied jazz improvisation and all sorts of advanced stuff.
I almost hit the ceiling. I got out of the student's earshot and told the mother that the last teacher had to be pretty negligent for this state of affairs to exist after this much instruction. I was probably less provoked by the student's situation than I was by the mother's apparent satisfaction with what had taken place so far, and by some idiotic questions that she had been asking me with a suspicious tone. I felt insulted that she would hold up such a negligent teacher as a paradigm.
Well, after a couple of lessons we got our diagnostics finished and started looking over his old lesson books in more detail. I found good books with well-selected exercises, and I found several very detailed sheets on jazz basics. They were neat, concise, well-presented, and written especially for this student in pencil. While the real goal had clearly not been met, I found that this teacher had provided the student with some excellent information. The real problem was that the student had comfort zone issues, no ensemble opportunities, and his parents' impression of what he should know was very low and based purely on personal assumption. This teacher, a college student, was inexperienced in getting some things across, but I was left with no doubt that he had made a great effort to help get this kid moving.
I quickly retracted what I had told the student's mother and hoped that she had not repeated it to anyone back home. But this showed me that even after considerable questioning, I could still draw wrong conclusions about a student's last teacher.
This is largely why I feel queasy about criticizing real teachers from the wastelands of the internet. After seeing some close calls with good info available, I am scared to death of what we sometimes say here with little or no info to base it on.
Allen Cole
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Author: 3dogmom
Date: 2004-11-21 18:26
I think you're absolutely right about us criticizing teachers. I hear, from your posting, that you were able to keep your comments away from your students. That shows a lot of class and I'm sure must have been difficult.
I made a comment a few days ago that raised a lot of ire among you folks when I suggested that when I, as a teacher, felt irritation I knew that it was my "problem" and not the student's. Not my intention to suggest that someone else has a problem, and apologize if that is how it sounded.
I work with elementary school students doing classroom, chorus and two bands. I feel a responsibility to educate, inspire and, yes, provide an atmosphere of fun for these children so they learn a love of music. I don't want any of my students to grow up to say "I can't sing". I want them to have open minds about what they hear and learn to express themselves in a musical context. Certainly the stakes change as players get older, and I'm starting a new thread on that subject.
Sue
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Author: allencole
Date: 2004-11-22 00:42
Thanks for bringing that up, Sue. I am very reluctant to say much in front of a student, even if I think that student would benefit. With kids, it's so risky that they will put their own spin on what we say to back up something on their own agenda.
Generally, I have found that when new students come to me because of difficulty with one or more previous teachers, it was actually the student (or sometimes the parent) who introduced the difficulty. Before getting too critical of another teacher, I tend to want to hear similiar complaints from several places.
I look forward to your new thread, where we can discuss these issues on more general terms.
Allen Cole
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