 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: sinkdraiN
Date: 2004-11-09 14:00
Like many of you, I have a pretty nice CD collection full of classical, jazz, and pop music. As a musician, I thought I should try to get the most detailed sound possible so I lurked around an audio forum for a couple months and put together a nice kit. I can not believe how different it is listening to music with a nice audio system. I hear things in the CDs that I have never hear before. Every instrument is clear and there is a sense of position- I can hear where each instrument is located.
Do any of you have nice system for listening to your music? I am very interested in DVD Audio and SACD. With the additional amount of information on those discs the music must be VERY detailed!
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Author: wjk
Date: 2004-11-09 16:19
I recently purchased a headphone amplifier and a quality set of headphones for my Sony portable. It makes a world of difference!
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Author: msloss
Date: 2004-11-09 18:26
Assuming you have a system that can resolve the detail, DVDA and SACD are a huge improvement over CD, particularly in the microdynamics of live performance. Both technologies are a real blessing for analog reissues because you get so much closer to the master tapes. The resolution benefits of analog from LP with the dynamic range of 24 bit or better digital. The DSD recorded and mastered stuff is also amazing but there is still precious little of it.
I've listened to the hi-res formats on my hi fi home system as well as my studio monitors which provide excruciating detail, and it is very much worth the investment.
Don't sound the funeral bells for CD, though. The newest players have decoders that finally extract very good results from the format. The noise shaping and up/oversampling filters make a tremendous difference as compared to earlier generations of players. 1980's CDs still sound like crap, but less so.
Happy listening.
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2004-11-09 18:30
Should I stop using my Edison wax cylinder phonograph? It's got that really cool horn with the Dalmatian dog listening at the big end............
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Author: sinkdraiN
Date: 2004-11-09 22:56
I am very interested in DVD-A and SACD formats. I saw a universal player (Pioneer 578) at best buy for only $99. Maybe I'll pick one up based on your post, msloss. I have a hi fi receiver and very nice speakers so its sounds like its worth the try.
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Author: ned
Date: 2004-11-10 01:31
I sure do!
*Marantz 1060 amplifier [you Americans call them receivers, I think].
*Marantz CD42 CD player.
*Marantz SD1030 Cassette deck.
*Philips 212 Electronic Turntable with pitch adjustment, independent suspension, anti-skate.......etc [very handy for old discs recorded out of pitch - sadly the belt is now stretched beyond use].
*Pioneer TX5300 stereo tuner.
*Yamaha MT3X multi-track cassette recorder, chrome heads, pitch control [useful for live recording and re-dubbing from out of pitch cassettes].
*Philips CDR 570 hi-fi burner [for use when copying old vinyl or cassette to CD].
* a couple of fairly ordinary twin cone 6'' speakers.
** The good news that I have just purchased a pair of ERA2 ''bookshelf'' speakers for the amazing price of $40 from an op-shop. The sound is so much better than what I have been accustomed to, they give that solidly reassuring thump when powered up.
I'm afraid that DVD audio and SACD (whatever that is) is beyond me (and probably my pocket) at this point.
[ps] can anyone advise me, as a resident of Melbourne Australia, where I might find a replacement belt for the above mentioned turntable?
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2004-11-10 01:38
John Kelly - Australia wrote:
> *Marantz 1060 amplifier [you Americans call them receivers, I
> think].
Only with an integrated tuner. Otherwise an amplifier, as opposed to separate preamp/power amp.
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Author: steve s
Date: 2004-11-10 03:10
I have put together a stereo system consisting of my computer and a three-way Klipsch speaker system (2 satellites and a subwoofer). It is sufficiently good that the sound it produces does not irritate me. Outside of that, I take no audio systems nor recordings of music seriously. Music is only music when it is experienced as a live performance. If I want to listen to one of my recordings of the Cleveland Orchestra, I have to close my eyes and imagine that I am sitting in severance hall and conjure up all of the tactile, aural, and emotional inputs from my memories to make what I'm hearing more than just pretty sounds. that is to say, I have to go through an exercise of suspending disbelief, which is something that I find distasteful.
I will admit that my views are extreme and may sound ridiculous. But I have never heard a recording equal my memory of the live concert. I was a season ticket holder in Cleveland from 1959 to 1972, and I heard many of the performances that were later committed to disk under non-live audience conditions. I was also at one of the concerts that became the live recording of Mahler 6. Still didn't measure up!
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Author: ned
Date: 2004-11-10 03:35
"" I take no audio systems nor recordings of music seriously. Music is only music when it is experienced as a live performance""
I think all would agree with the latter part of your statement, but for those of us with a limited amount of funds available for tickets to live performances, we make do with recordings. What do you think you will do upon the unfortunate, and inevitable, demise of your favourite performers? And then there are those performers who actually ceased performing prior to you having had the chance to hear them in concert.
""I have to close my eyes and imagine that I am sitting in severance hall and conjure up all of the tactile, aural, and emotional inputs""
I guess that means having another stereo system set up in your lounge with background noises of people coughing, moving their feet, whispering and rustling coats, bags and other objects?
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Author: BuskerBoy
Date: 2004-11-10 04:32
Etymotic Research EP-4S and the Headroom Max amp. You may never go outside again.
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Author: sinkdraiN
Date: 2004-11-10 17:19
recorded music is not going to replace the live experience. It is an alternative. After I put together a very nice audio kit at home, I realised that I could hear more detail from my audio system than at a live concert. This does not make it better- just different. For example; I saw Diana Krall many times live. She is excellent in that setting. However, coming from my audio speakers- I can hear the actual "wood" in the bass and even the subtle yet crisp sounds of her breath when she takes a breath. Even the squeak of the piano pedals are picked up by the ultra sensitive mics. This detail is only possible via a good audio system. My kit does not replace live music it is merely another way to experience the music.
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Author: Don Poulsen
Date: 2004-11-10 18:20
After the recent Ashlee Simpson/SNL debacle, I thought we had determined that live and recorded music were synonymous.
Well, if we're talking about symphonic music, I stand corrected, I hope.
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Author: jim S.
Date: 2004-11-11 22:51
Can there really be a unit that plays SACD and DVD audio for $99.00? If so ahm gone get me 'un.
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Author: diz
Date: 2004-11-11 23:35
B&O - the only way to go ... imho
Without music, the world would be grey, very grey.
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2004-11-11 23:36
Hi,
Here is my classic system (I do not use it anymore as the technology has been surpassed in a big way).
Yamaha Turntable P-450 with Shure cartridge
Nikko Alpha, Beta, and Gamma tuner, pre-amp, and amp
Advent Maestro Speakers
Notice, no CD, back speakers, or center channel. While I thought this system was good, my current Yamaha (receiver and sat/sub) and JVC CD blows this stuff out of the water.
But I remember Heathkits!!!! And I have always taken by audio system very seriously.
HRL
PS If you are not doing internet radio feed from your computer to your receiver, you are really missing something.
Post Edited (2004-11-12 02:23)
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Author: sinkdraiN
Date: 2004-11-12 12:34
Yes the Pioneer 578 at best buy plays sacd/dvd-a and its only $99 at best buy. The audiophiles seem to like this player.
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Author: Synonymous Botch
Date: 2004-11-12 15:39
The Pioneer Universal player has a low price, but the best all around sound is dependent on the on-board decoder. It's the limiting step for resolution.
Remember that DVD-A does not (currently) output the signal in digital form, so you are dependent on the digital to analog converter (DAC) within the player.
The only onboard decoder that I thought worth the money was Denon's.
The basic player starts at $600 USD! If you're looking to spend that kind of money, you may also want a player with the DVI connector for Video. There are others that cost considerably more, some cost less. I liked the sound of the Denon best.
Given that most DVD-A titles available are reissued older recordings, I'm not willing to make that leap.
The most important part of your listening rig (with loudspeakers) is the room.
The second most important piece of gear is the speaker...
I recommend the KEF line of speakers with the Uni-Q (coaxial) drivers if you're on a budget. Widdle with placement, and then decide if you need an outboard subwoofer.
The Headroom line of products are superior, if you are willing to listen within the confines of headphones. The Etymotic In the Ear headphones offer superior noise isolation, and dynamic bass (amazing when you see the size of the driver involved)... but they can be uncomfortable.
I like the Sennheiser HD580, which has a neutral sound, and fits softly over the ears.
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2004-11-12 15:53
to msloss and the other mavens -
I've read that the inexpensive DVD players that also play SACD disks are not "true" SACD players, but only a not so good emulation.
Is this so?
I'm not ready to spend $2,000 and up on a dedicated SACD player. What's the least I can get away with?
Thanks.
Ken Shaw
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Author: msloss
Date: 2004-11-12 18:55
Largely myth. You can't really "emulate" Direct Stream Digital, which is a 1-bit sigma-delta data stream. You can only decode the stream by reading the DSD signal and converting it into the analog domain, or transforming it to something else (like PCM, which is what CD and DVD-A use). What you may have heard is that some implementations do take the DSD stream and convert it to hi-res PCM before converting it to analog. I'm pretty sure though that this architecture largely went away after the first couple generations of players were out. It is possible that there are some less expensive universal players that still do this, but there is little reason any more as the chip sets have become less expensive and more feature-rich.
To my knowledge, Denon (definitely) and Pioneer (pretty sure) universal players do play SACDs straight through as DSD without any interim conversion. Sony of course does as well, but I don't think their decks play DVD-A.
Now to pull back the curtain -- a lot of the SACD releases themselves are upconversions from PCM sources. DSD recorders, mixing desks and editing stations have been horrendously expensive, so a lot of studios (including my own) record everything in the highest resolution PCM (24 or 32 bit, 192kHz), and then those that release SACDs do a final stage conversion to DSD. Some labels have made the investment in DSD all the way (like DMP), but you have to research to be sure. The sound certainly doesn't suck by any means, but it puts the concern over your player in some perspective because that kind of conversion already probably happened somewhere else in the signal chain.
Final thought: I have heard $200 SACD players that sound better than $2000 CD players. Yes, there are a number of variables, including whether the SACD and CD were mastered the same, but there is a quantum leap in quality with the format that is tough to ignore at any price. Sony has been pushing down the price to get people to buy the hardware on the cheap and then start purchasing SACDs. I would be willing to venture that $300 wil buy a player that most but the most picayune would be satisfied with (yeah, that would be me...).
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Author: sinkdraiN
Date: 2004-11-13 22:41
The pioneer is not the best sounding sacd/dvd-a player out there but for $99 its a great way to start out by experiencing these formats. The dvd performance of the pioneer is excellent. DVD play-back may be it's best quality. The sacd/dvd-a is an added bonus. Everything else starts at $600+
there are a lot of nice releases in these formats
check out the review site here: http://www.highfidelityreview.com/reviews/dvdaudio.asp
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