 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: D Dow
Date: 2004-10-29 19:51
Was wondering what others thought of this subject...but it appears Szell and his marriage to Cleveland and Karajan with his to Berlin seems to be less the norm these days...
I hear an awful lot of musicians saying a conductor should last no longer than 7 years with any orchestra no matter!
I think with the comparison to the average marriage going at 7-9 years the comparison is pretty fair....what do ya think?
David Dow
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Author: msloss
Date: 2004-10-29 20:14
The difference between the relationship Szell, Reiner, Ormandy, etc. had with their orchestras and the situation today is that there was some semblance of monogamy. Yes, they guest conducted other ensembles, but there was no question as to what their principal post was. Today's maestros conduct so few concerts that 7 - 9 years probably only equates to 3 whole seasons. And for this part-time relationship, they are paid dearly. Look at Barenboim, Levine, Gergiev, etc. Incredible musicians, but what is their principal ensemble?
Imagine any other job, including being a member of one of these august orchestras, where you can show up part time, be paid the highest wage, and have ample time to hold down three more jobs just like it.
These guys don't even wait until the honeymoon is over to start stepping out on the bride. Maybe the right question to ask isn't how long the relationship should last, but whether they should even get betrothed in the first place. There are plenty of phenomenal conductors waiting in the wings who would be (to beat this metaphor to death) loving, dedicated spouses, whom the musicians and audiences would adore given the chance.
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Author: BobD
Date: 2004-10-29 21:13
Not sure that opinions from the ranks or orchestra members and audience carry any weight.....it's a business decision.
Bob Draznik
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Author: msloss
Date: 2004-10-30 00:02
Ironically, you may be right, but what is the orchestra's raison d'etre if you ignore the musicians and the audience? Is it a good business decision? Consider the extraordinary sums these conductors are being paid for their efforts -- Now consider if the orchestras could get a full season out of the $2.5 million salary. The leftovers would go a long way toward curing some of the current ills in many of these institutions.
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Author: JessKateDD
Date: 2004-10-30 03:07
Karajan is a bit misplaced in this thread. I view him more as a polygamist. He had Vienna, Berlin, and Philharmonia simultaneously in the 50s. He stormed out of Vienna in the mid 60s when they would not let him run every phase of the State Opera's productions. Then in the 80's, when the Berliners were resisting him (most notably over his hiring of Fraulein Meyer and apparent demotion of Herr Leister), he ran back to the ex in Vienna!
Today there are many talented orchestras around the world. But the number of first rate conductors is few, so there is a lot of incentive for those directors to hold one or two music director jobs as well as one or two principal guest conducting jobs on the side. With orchestras losing money and constant strife between labor and management, these directors just do not stick around anymore.
Long ago, there were far fewer top orchestras, but many more brilliant conductors. Plus those conductors had a lot of power to shape orchestras - they could hire and fire musicians at will. Today's musicians would not tolerate the likes of Reiner, Szell, Toscanini, Stokowski, or Koussevitzhy.
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Author: D Dow
Date: 2004-10-30 13:12
Barbirolli in Manchester with Halle was there a long time too (30 years plus)
Abravenel in Utah was there a long time
Ormandy in Philly...
Mengelberg in Amsterdam went a very long time...
also don't forget Mvrinsky in with Leningrad....
David Dow
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Author: CPW
Date: 2004-10-30 15:22
Hah.....Previn and Mia Farrow, and a few others....and now Anna Sophie Muter......
Well, heck I would pick Anna over any orchestra.
OH...this thread is about orchestras, not wives. My bad
The name of the game is box office and bottom line. And also about schmoozing foundations and individuals for moolah. (Think departure of whatzisname from Pittsburgh...great conductor, but slam bam thanx ma'am when it came to being part of community).
CFOs (Chief Financial Officer) call the shots.....not artisitic directors.
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Author: msloss
Date: 2004-10-30 15:50
I don't agree that the number of talented conductors is few. I think there are indeed a large number of untalented conductors on the podium, but there are also many unbelievable talents out there that haven't broken into the game (yet) because they didn't study with the right teacher, attend the right school, or kiss the right butt.
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2004-10-30 15:56
msloss wrote:
> because they
> didn't study with the right teacher, attend the right school,
> or kiss the right butt.
Or any combination of the above. It's not a musical monopoly, but true in any competitive profession.
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Author: GBK
Date: 2004-10-30 16:07
Our former conductor is now one of the cover conductors for the New York Philharmonic.
Lots of prep work and always the (very slim) chance you'll be called.
What's it like to actually get the call to go on with only 2 hours notice?
Read the experience of another NYP cover conductor:
http://www.markandthakar.com/Exciting.htm ...GBK
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Author: D Dow
Date: 2004-10-30 22:21
Look at Maazel..he has never been a permanent conductor of any group for very long..
Dutoit in Montreal lasted 20 some year or more...
Klemper was with the Philharmonia for over 20 years..
Solti was with Chicago for over 30 years...
Yes there are many great conductors out there, but with the way orchestra work these days it's pretty hard for unknowns to get a chance..marketing has now taken over pretty much.
David Dow
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Author: John J. Moses
Date: 2004-10-31 15:48
Speaking of conductors & marriage, check out:
"Conductor Daniel Oren Arrested Immediately Following Performance at Metropolitan Opera"
http://www.andante.com/article/article.cfm?id=24635
JJM
Légère Artist
Clark W. Fobes Artist
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2004-10-31 19:20
The Pianist who coached me for my Senior Recital (back in the early 80's) was Anna Sophie Muter's Accompanist.
Looks like she found another Accompanist being built in now
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