 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: BAC <-used to be Barry
Date: 2000-01-14 00:16
I have heard that people think that clainets wear out. Just a few topics ago, someone stated that Richard Stolzman buy new clarinets often due to his wearing out. In that same thread, another stated that the clarinet that Prinz uses in the VPO could be "turn-of-the-century ones hand-made by Oskar Oehler for the VPO and handed down from one generation to the next"
Perhaps clarinets just need to get re-adjusted, or if real old, new keys. I have a master model that was made in the early 1950's, and it sounds like a new R13, but the keys are not as tight.
What think ye on this topic -- clarinet blow out -- is it hype used by those looking for an excuse to buy the latest (I can relate to that! ) or fact do to either the wood changes and no longer sounds right, or just mechanical wear?
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2000-01-14 00:26
Blow out is a phenomena that is hotly debated - please check the Klarinet Archives and read through all the material there - and then figure out what it really means :^)
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Author: Kim
Date: 2000-01-14 01:09
I have a 70 year old Buffet R-13. This clarinet has gotten sharper and sharper regardless of my attempts at a 68mm barrel and a new mouthpiece. Nothing seemed to help--even new pads! Clarinets do in fact wear out: its a fact of nature.
When I went to Weiner's last week to buy a brand new pro grade instrument, they told me that just as stone tiling can wear down from being walked on too much, wooden clarinets can wear down from being swabbed out too much in addition to absorbing too much moisture over time. Swabbing causes the wood to wear down and the moisture causes it to get soggy.
Kim
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2000-01-14 01:16
Kim wrote:
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Clarinets do in fact wear out: its a fact of nature.
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Do you have proof that it has worn out? Could it be other things happening? What other things could be happening?
That's why you really need to research this kind of thing - check through the Klarinet archives. Some very reknown players do not think it is a fact of nature, while others do.
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Author: J. Butler
Date: 2000-01-14 02:00
I hesitated responding here, but couldn't help myself. I don't buy it. I play on a Selmer Centered Tone "P" series and an R-13. The CT was manufactured in the early 50's and the R-13 was made in 1968. Aside from having to swedge keys and tighten up the action from time to time, they play great. I wouldn't want to count the number of times a swab has been down the bore of either instrument. So, say swabing the bore does enlarge the instrument---how much over what period of time? Does a .573 bore that has been swabed over the years, lets say to a max of .578 (a stretch perhaps) make it "blown out"? I know I'm just rambling here but I'm not convinced.
J. Butler
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Author: Kim
Date: 2000-01-14 02:06
Well, maybe I was exaggerating a bit. I really liked my old instrument. My clarinet professor seems to think so too. Whenever the clarinet seems to sharpen and not play as well as it used to she goes out and buys a new instrument. This usually happens every 7 years. Maybe it is a common occurrence, but not a fact of nature!
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Author: Kim
Date: 2000-01-14 02:11
I guess "blown out" would mean, in my experience with my 70 year old instrument, when the notes are not as resonant as they were when the clarinet was first bought. The low A is so sharp that its unbelievable! The high notes are extremely shrill! Besides that, you have a professor that is after you for how bad you sound, in addition you stop liking the tone quality of your own instrument. I consider that to be a "blown out" instrument.
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Author: J. Butler
Date: 2000-01-14 02:24
I almost bet your 70 year old instrument played that when you first got it too. Could it be now that you are more proficient in your listening skills, etc that you are just noticing it. I also notice when I play my CT for several weeks and then switch to the R-13 I have to readjust my thinking and listening. It also takes awhile for me to "automatically" adjust to the intonation of the instrument,ie, letting it be a natural response to play in tune rather than a conscious effort.
J. Butler
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Author: Kim
Date: 2000-01-14 02:40
It did, and I tried to get it fixed, but it never happened. Oh, well, I am happy that I have a new instrument and will improve even more in my hearing and listening.
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Author: Dee
Date: 2000-01-14 03:44
Kim,
Didn't you say that your 70 year old instrument was a Pan American?? If so that was the major source of the problems. They were never any good when new so you wouldn't be able to tell if it was worn out or not. The Pan American was notorious for its poor intonation.
Naturally a quality pro horn plays markedly better. Even a Bundy or Vito would play better than a Pan American. You see I had an old Pan American also and it was a wild thing to play. Plus having dismantled it a couple of times for adjusting, key polishing, repadding, etc., I can tell you that it used very cheap construction.
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Author: Dee
Date: 2000-01-14 03:48
I went back and read your post. I was thinking of someone else who had said they had a Pan American.
By the way if your old Buffet was 70 years old, it was not an R-13 since they weren't introduced until the mid 1950s. However it still could have been a professional model of one of the older designs.
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Author: Willie
Date: 2000-01-14 04:29
I might be wrong here, but correct me if I'm wrong. I find it hard to believe that swabbing the bore with a cloth or "fuzz" brush could ream out the bore enough to sharpen the notes. A bore cleaning brush from a 40mm AA gun,yes but a swab, no. I have an old Jeffrey here that was bought right after WW2 and was played in Dixieland bands every week until the man died in 1988. It has more miles on it than a Peterbilt and the only wear on the keys is in the plating. Keep in mind this is not even a "pro" instrument. How much would the length have to shrink to sharpen a clarinet significantly? I'm courious myself. Any math whizs out there?
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Author: Margaret Copeland
Date: 2000-01-14 04:50
I can only tell you about my experiences with my 32 year old oboe. It got to the point where it was unplayable - I could not get it in tune no matter the reed or what I did. I had horrible water problems with the tone holes. I could not play for more than a few minutes without getting water in the tone holes. No amount of swabbing, blowing etc. would clear the water.
I had a friend remove all the keys from the upper top joint and coat it with a plastic lacquer. He carefully measured the bore before and after and repolished it the original spec. In addition he removed a considerable amount of weird white powder from the tone holes. I'm still not sure what the powder is as your breath doesn't have minerals in it. Perhaps the wood leaches something - who knows ?
The water problems are totally gone - the tuning is much better but the writing is on the wall for this oboe. Now unless I want to have the posts reset etc., I'm always going to put up with a sloppy mechanism that goes out of adjustment. This particular student quality oboe is just not worth any more effort. The bottom line is that I don't want to spend all my time fooling with and working so hard to play each note. So.... I'm buying a new oboe. Yes !
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Author: Graham Elliott
Date: 2000-01-14 12:13
Apart from the key work (obviously) two distinct aspects of wear may appear to have occured, intonation and tone. I bought a new Boosey & Hawkes instrument once and six years later it had gone badly out of tune. The tone had not changed. I took it to the factory for a rebore and it was better again. I sold it soon after so I do not know how permanent the repair was.
Since then and for the last twelve years I have had a pair of intruments of c. 90 years of age. These have no worse or better tuning than they had when manufactured (though tone holes in the A have been adjusted). The sound has not changed over the period I have had them. I cannot say for certain that this did not change in the previous 80 years, but I doubt it. These instruments were well recorded all the way into the 1940s (Two recordings as late as 1958) so it is possible to make comparisons. The model is still regularly played in an original instrument band called the New Queens Hall Orchestra (also recorded)and sound fresh.
Reading round the subject, earlier players seemed to keep their instruments for much longer than 10 years, unless they met with an accident. Brymer bought his in the 1930s, and changed in the 1960s when he damaged the B flat beyond repair.
Whatever may be the case for the clarinets of the last 40 years, I have strong doubts that "blow out" applies to earlier instruments.
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Author: J.Butler
Date: 2000-01-14 12:56
As Mark stated earlier, check out the archieves on this topic. There is a lot of discussion listed there. He also made another statement found in the archieves that I enjoyed reading. It was..."send me all your blown out clarinets".
There are many differences between oboe and clarinet construction and I've heard many an oboist claim that their oboe didn't function properly after many years of playing.
(Also see archieves)
Also, if you read L Gibsons book on clarinet acoustics, he claims that the bore of the Boosey and Hawkes is so large that the instrument can not play in tune. (please correct me here if I misread this, but I believe I am correct.) The twelfths are too large. I've never played a Boosey so can't make that claim myself. I'm sure some of you Boosey fans would like to take issue with that.
J. Butler
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Author: Margaret Copeland
Date: 2000-01-14 13:13
Yes the top joint of an oboe is a sorry item. It is very narrow - lots of keys and holes and all of that puts a great deal of stress on the wood. If the Clarinet archives are right maybe today's species of grenadilla isn't what it used to be. I'm not looking forward to my own new oboe cracking right away despite what care I give it. Fortunately cracks can be pinned.
I have a 70 year old English Horn - it plays much better than my oboe. I don't think it is exactly the same species of grenadilla as my oboe. The grain is very different looking and the wood is much much heavier. In my concert band there are some clarinet players with very nice B&C clarinets that are as old. They sound wonderful.
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2000-01-14 14:10
J.Butler wrote:
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As Mark stated earlier, check out the archieves on this topic. There is a lot of discussion listed there. He also made another statement found in the archieves that I enjoyed reading. It was..."send me all your blown out clarinets".
----
That statement was purloined from Dan Leeson :^)
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Author: Graham Elliott
Date: 2000-01-14 15:48
A few points on this.
There is a view, expressed strongly by Mario the other day, for example, that polycylindrical wide bore clarinets are in tune, so the bore size is not the critical factor.
All Boosey Clarinets were straight bore but were not all the same dimension. The "926" (15 mm) was generally considered to play well in tune.
Even with the most well known and widest model (the 1010) the top players seemed to play these in tune, so the problems which these clarinets had were not outrageous and have probably been exaggerated.
In my case, whatever the tuning merits of my 1010, the point is that the bore warped and it went wildly out of tune in a way that could not be attributed to the design.
J.Butler wrote:
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Also, if you read L Gibsons book on clarinet acoustics, he claims that the bore of the Boosey and Hawkes is so large that the instrument can not play in tune. (please correct me here if I misread this, but I believe I am correct.) The twelfths are too large. I've never played a Boosey so can't make that claim myself. I'm sure some of you Boosey fans would like to take issue with that.
J. Butler
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Author: Ken Shaw
Date: 2000-01-14 16:39
BAC wrote:
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I have heard that people think that clainets wear out. Just a few topics ago, someone stated that Richard Stolzman buy new clarinets often due to his wearing out. In that same thread, another stated that the clarinet that Prinz uses in the VPO could be "turn-of-the-century ones hand-made by Oskar Oehler for the VPO and handed down from one generation to the next"
Perhaps clarinets just need to get re-adjusted, or if real old, new keys. I have a master model that was made in the early 1950's, and it sounds like a new R13, but the keys are not as tight.
What think ye on this topic -- clarinet blow out -- is it hype used by those looking for an excuse to buy the latest (I can relate to that! ) or fact do to either the wood changes and no longer sounds right, or just mechanical wear?
Barry -
I think the definitive explanation of "blow out" was given by a series of postings on the Klarinet board last year. Ed Maurey wrote at <A HREF=http://www.sneezy.org/Databases/Logs/1999/06/000786.txt>http://www.sneezy.org/Databases/Logs/1999/06/000786.txt<A> where he wrote: "You can run a flap hone with 400 grit paper at 1,000 RPM for 60 seconds in the bore of a clarinet joint and not be able to measure a diameter increase. [You will, however, make it nice and shiny.] How a cloth swab could ever enlarge a clarinet bore is beyond me."
Alan Swiney agreed, writing at <A HREF=http://www.sneezy.org/Databases/Logs/1999/06/000791.txt>http://www.sneezy.org/Databases/Logs/1999/06/000791.txt<A> :
"You are right. Cloth swabs don't change the bore through wear but they do change tone holes drastically. When the bore contracts so does the wall of the clarinet. When the wall of the instrument contacts the tone holes get smaller. When the tone holes get smaller the pitch gets flatter and stuffier.
"Lets talk about the swab! The swab is used to clean the BORE! Right? The swab never makes contact with the tone hole wall or undercutting. Usually when a clarinetist has finished playing, they must blow the water
from the tone holes or used a pipe cleaner. The pipe cleaner only gets the cylinder clean but the undercutting is left untouched. As the swab is pulled though the bore, lint or fibers from the tight swab will build up in the bottom section of the tone holes, especially with cotton swabs.( I recommend silk swabs as they shed less). This fiber build up acts as a filter. As saliva and condensation runs down the bore of the horn, this fiber filter sucks it right into the tone hole.
"Next the Moisture dries and leaves natural minerals like calcium in the fiber filter. Over a period of time the a crusty plaque will form in the tone made of lint, fibers and calcium. This Build up is very similar in appearance to calcius or dental plaque. Eventually this plaque will decrease the tone hole volume and occlude the undercutting thus making the clarinet play in a "blown out" manner. Each month I remove a tablespoon of plaque from or local symphony clarinetist's instrument.
"Chronic water gurgles are also a sign of fiber build up or tone hole plaque. I originally discovered tone hole plaque while doing medical studies on clarinets. I was X-raying some of the clarinets that I inherited from my
Repair teacher W. Hans Moennig. These white rings kept appearing at the apex of the undercutting with a resolution very similar to human bone. It was quite confusing to me because I could not find foreign material via the bore or tone hole cylinder. I used a proctoscope to view the undercutting and there it was Big as Day, a I.5 mm protrusion into the air path. At that point I design a cleaning tool that matched the tone hole profile. The tool was designed to reach the hidden section of the undercutting that the swab never cleans. After carefully removing the old plaque build up from the tone holes the instrument was much more resonant.
"In addition to improving the pitch and timbre, Removing swab and fiber plaque can also reduce wood cracks though tone holes. Such cracks are very common on the top joint side B and Bb trillers, throat A, and the Left hand G# hole. If you have a new clarinet, now is the time to clean the plaque from the tone holes. I will be glad to mail you information on the cleaning tool and how to use it, if you don't already have it. Just send me your street address as I don't have a scanner yet.
"I hope this posting will help clarinetist better understand the age old problem of pitch change due to tone hole plaque and Not Bore Blow Out."
This is the only satisfactory explanation I've seen for "blow out," and it seems to have settled the issue on the Klarinet board, at least for the time being.
However, I can speak from experience that the situation with barrels is different, at least when they are new. The high moisture level, combined with the altered stress patterns when the bore is drilled, mean that that the bore, and particuarly the sockets, of a barrel will nearly always shrink slightly. This results in "frozen" joints that occur so often between the upper joint and the barrel on new instruments. At least with Kalmen Opperman's carefully "tweaked" barrels, you must always bring a new one back for readjustment of the bore after a month or two, or even several adjustments, particularly if it is made of rosewood, which is his preference.
Several years ago, I went to a concert where Harold Wright play the Brahms Quintet with the most beautiful tone I have ever heard. I can still remember where I was sitting and how wonderfully he played. I learned that he was playing Ralph McLane's A clarinet, which at that time was well over 50 years old, yet was still, according to Kalmen Opperman, the finest A clarinet in existence.
Blow-out? Bah, humbug!
Ken Shaw
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Author: Fred
Date: 2000-01-14 16:43
Just a thought from one who probably doesn't know enough to open his mouth . . . but suppose you DID increase the bore size through repeated swabbing . . . would you expect the resulting pitch to go UP or DOWN? Would it work like an organ pipe (larger bore is lower)? I can't help but wonder if the problem might be with these mysterious deposits and keys which always get waterlogged. If you start to partially fill up key holes with . . . shall we be kind and call it plaque . . . wouldn't that send the pitch higher? A horn that has those water problems routinely is a prime candidate for bore and keyhole inspection . . . and a good cleaning if the instrument is worth saving.
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Author: BAC
Date: 2000-01-14 17:01
Being fairly new to clarinets, but not wood, I attributed 'blow-out' to those instruments that were not taken care of. Wood will shrink and expand with heat and moisture. Those instruments that experience this normal shrinking and expanding, but to excess, and a lot of it where those that 'blew out'. The dryer the instruments is, the more is will expand as it takes in moisture. The more moisture it has, the faster it will shrink as moisture is pulled from it during dry seasons. A well oiled instrument may moderate both these effects.
I think this is one reason why you see very old instruments that still play well, and newer instruments that do not. Yes, the quality of the wood may either speed this process along or not, I just do not have a firm footing on the properties of various clarinet woods.
I do love the idea of ---- "please send me your blown out clarinets" ;-^)
barry
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2000-01-14 17:38
The formula for the 1st resonant frequency of an air column is
f=v/4(L + 0.4D)
where v is the local velocity of sound, L the length, and D the diameter.
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Author: Ken Shaw
Date: 2000-01-14 18:55
Fred wrote:
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. . . If you start to partially fill up key holes with . . . shall we be kind and call it plaque . . . wouldn't that send the pitch higher?
Fred -
I don't think so. Making a hole smaller will *lower* the pitch due to less venting, which will have a far greater effect on pitch than any diminution in the total volume of the bore. The pitch of a pipe is determined by the total length of the resonating air column, which remains the same regardless of the diameter/total volume of air.
Ken Shaw
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2000-01-15 04:09
Ken Shaw wrote:
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The pitch of a pipe is determined by the total length of the resonating air column, which remains the same regardless of the diameter/total volume of air.
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Not quite, Ken. That's why D has to be considered - the effective diameter changes due to the tone holes.
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