 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: JMcAulay
Date: 2004-10-10 23:51
While reading another (bizarre) thread, I was astonished by oxfeely's comment that "Many professional teachers and players take it for granted that plating of keys affects the tonal coloration of a clarinet."
This is a view which has never before been shared with me by any teacher or player, in my 57 years of being a Clarinet student, teacher, amateur and professional player. I'd certaily like to know if this is not a generally positively-considered concept, or have I just led a sheltered life, not to be aware of it?
Regards,
John
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2004-10-10 23:58
In my professional field (various applications in computer science) I find similar belief systems. Very few have any substance, however, there is almost always some history behind them where correlation & causality got intermixed.
However, I've been surprised when I shouldn't have been with other effects that seem to be counterintuitive. I spent a few years as an acoustical engineer (NDT, sound silencing for surface ships, and equipment failure prediction from sound sampling) and was taken aback when I started playing clarinet. I had assumed the sound came out the bell, even though I knew better intellectually. I just had never put 2+2 together.
Then I heard the sound move up & down the tube and felt the hairs on my arm being moved by the pressure wave coming out the holes ...
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Author: msloss
Date: 2004-10-11 00:26
John, I think you will get as many opinions as people you ask. I know one extremely well respected symphonic clarinetist who finds that horns with silver-plated keys sound brighter than nickel-plated and therefore prefers nickel. When you play at that level, it is perfectly reasonable to believe that the slightest nuance would be more obvious than for a lot of mere mortal clarinet players. We know that brass instruments take on very different characters depending on the alloy and plating, so surely a little bit of that must carry to our world.
Now, anybody want to discuss the benefits of cryogenically treating your keys...
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Author: JMcAulay
Date: 2004-10-11 01:25
Mark, I've played instruments with nickel plated keys, silver plated keys, sterling keys, nickel silver keys, and brass keys. Also one with plastic keys, but I don't think that counts... sort of in the same never-mind land as the so-called Clarinet having cast white metal keys (chromium plated, I think). But I've never compared otherwise identical instruments with different key treatments. There are no examples of such in my stable, or I'd check it out straightaway. That, of course, would be the only way to develop any subjective relevant experience -- so until then, I'll simply have no opinion. But what's surprising is never to have heard or read of this evidently widespread belief/opinion/feeling/whatever it is.
Regards.
John
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2004-10-11 01:53
How can there be identical instruments?
There can't be. There always will be dimension differences - always.
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2004-10-11 02:03
I play at that level and don't buy it for a second 
That's why some high end flutes are made with Solid Silver Flute Bodies, Headjoints and still some come with the silver plated (not solid silver) keys.
The keys don't make a dilly of difference and to me anyone who believes that they do is (to me) propagating a myth - no matter how well they play.
The only way to even semi accurately test it would be to play a Clarinet with Nickel keys and then take off the keys and put a set of the Silver keys on the same Clarinet - being sure to duplicate exactly the compression of the Clarinet each test.
Backun has that equipment (compression testing is awesome).
I do believe that materials make a difference and that the bore does vibrate enough to make a difference in the tone of the instrument (plastic, etc vs other woods).
That is of course subject to argument too
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2004-10-11 05:10
I won't subscribe either. I don't even have the open-mindedness of Mark on this issue.
The length of the hairs in the player's nose and ears would surely make more difference than the plating of the keys. :-)
There's possibly a reasonable correlation between pot-belliedness and long-term professional playing though. So should we seek pot bellies? Ha!
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2004-10-11 05:22
The very highest quality instrument will have attention to many, many details that affect how the instrument plays.
It so happens, COINCIDENTALLY, that these same instruments are unlikely to be nickel plated, because most top players prefer the feel (and appearance?) of silver.
That does NOT mean the plating has anything to do with the sound.
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Author: claaaaaarinet!!!!
Date: 2004-10-11 05:27
A theory on the origin of the plating myth:
Since instrument makers sell silver-keyed clarinets at a higher price than nickel-keyed ones, maybe the workmen at the factory intuitively selected better wood for constructing the silver-keyed clarinets. Over time, players might begin to notice that silver-keyed clarinets generally played better than the nickel-keyed ones and then mistakenly attribute this difference to the plating of the keys rather than to the true difference - the quality of wood.
This doesn't account for why some players might think that nickel-keyed clarinets play better, but consider this: if the prevailing viewpoint was that silver-keyed clarinets played better than nickel, can't you imagine some influential and contrary minded clarinetist addopting the opposite opinion for no good reason? Over time, he convinces himself that nickel-keyed clarinets are in fact more mellow sounding than silver-keyed ones and then convinces his students of the same. A myth is born!
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2004-10-11 05:32
Of COURSE the surface finish affects the sound.
As I have repeated several times here, the power of the human mind to deceive itself is enormous. A perfect piece of evidence is that we STILL are deceived by optical illusions even when we KNOW we are being deceived.
If the player is playing on the finish he BELIEVES improves the sound, then he will either feel better, and hence play better, or feel better, and just like an intoxicated person, BELIEVE he plays better.
So the sound has both a lot, and nothing to do with the sound, depending on the personal gullibility of the player. Not being personal here, mind you, just soap boxing.
I used to imagine I played the flute a lot worse if I had eaten an apple a few hours before playing. Now I could eat apples during the bars rest and it would not make a blind bit of difference. Just mind games and more mind games. I probably ate fruit (which happened to be apples a few times in a row) when I was nervous.
A forum does tend to get tedious when it comes to focus mainly on people's belief systems. Such threads should be relegated to religious forums.
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Author: JTS
Date: 2004-10-11 05:33
The new Yamaha G series clarinets come with two different platings. One is silver and the other is something called Hamilton, a gold silver combo or something. Bil Jackson is convinced it makes a difference. I have tried many and would tend to agree with him. In general, excusing small differences that exist between any two horns of the same model, the two platings tend to have sightly different sounds. I never would have believed it... until I tried it.
JTS
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Author: GBK
Date: 2004-10-11 05:39
I don't subscribe either. Proving that different plating has a substantial effect is, of course, impossible.
To extend this minutiae even further -
Shouldn't one think that that the plating of the key posts, inserted into the grenadilla and closer to the bore (and air column), would have more of an actual effect than the plating of the moveable keys? ...GBK
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2004-10-11 05:58
JTS, to make such a statement with any validity at all, you would have to have sampled many instrumnets of each type of plating, blind-fold, with blind fold evaluators, and you would have to know absolutely that Yamaha did not DELIBERATELY make one model slightly different from the other, by OTHER means, for the sake of marketing two different sounds without specifying the REAL reason for the difference - probably an industrial secret. Even if this did occur, I doubt Yamaha would EVER admit to it.
So just what is the VALID justification for your statement.
Otherwise this is just the beginning of yet another myth that grows substance with repetition over time, by the unquestioning, and unthinking.
Surely!
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Author: donald
Date: 2004-10-11 09:58
it is of course possible that the player thinks/percieves that there is a difference in sound because of differing characteristics in the way that the keys transmit vibrations to the body through the fingers..... Silver keys are more solid and so give an impression of the clarinet being less vibrant, wheras nickel keys give one the impression that the whole clarinet is vibrating with the sound. The question then becomes- Does it matter? and maybe it does in some cases.....
i have met a few (professional) players who claim that Nickel sounds better than Silver. I don't have much of an opinion on this except to say i think Silver keys look...... real neat. Yeah!
donald
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2004-10-11 10:34
"Silver keys are more solid and so give an impression of the clarinet being less vibrant, whereas nickel keys give one the impression that the whole clarinet is vibrating with the sound."
That sounds mighty far fetched to me. What is meant by "solid"? Relative density? Silver is 10, and nickel is 8.67.
But we are talking about the PLATING. The plating metal is so thin that the difference the metal makes to the density of the whole key would be barely measurable.
What is meant by "vibrant" in this context?
Would plastic keys (relative density not far from 1) give a wonderful feel of the whole clarinet "vibrating with the sound" 10 times as much as with silver keys?
To me, the statement is a group of meaningless words posing as something technical.
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2004-10-11 11:01
All in all, though, no one to my knowledge has worked on either case (plating affects/doesn't affect the sound). All we're doing here is surmising based upon our experiences and using some mental exercises - something we could do forever and never reach any conclusion.
I tend towards scepticism, but that doesn't mean I'm right. The very reason I've asked for more substantial evidence than the "I feel that ..." - someone else can "feel" the opposite way and we're exactly where we started - no smarter at all about something that actually has a provable answer.
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2004-10-11 11:33
I have a Clarinet with rubber cup pads and plastic keys
Can anyone name the brand?
:)
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2004-10-11 11:49
Even the comment about the wood being selected for the Silver keys - there are those who say that the material of the Clarinet doesn't make a difference so perfect wood vs crappy wood shouldn't make a difference as long as the dimensions are the same.
I don't buy that one either, but that's out there too.
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Author: William
Date: 2004-10-11 14:17
Ok--we've destroyed any allegation that says the plating of the keys affects the tone of the instrument. NOW, how about those springs??
(Love's jarring the hornets nest--from a safe distance)
BTW--I agree with DB (& everyone else) on this one.
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Author: Avie
Date: 2004-10-11 14:23
Why would anyone believe the idea that the type of plate on the keys of ANY instrument would effect the coloration of the tone. As a test one could close there eyes while playing several clarinets and attempt to name the type of plate each has. It could be fun but it wouldnt prove anything, but the type of wood, hole and bore size, type of pads, mouthpiece, reed, etc. would more than likely determine the coloration of tone. And last but not least, the player. IMO the type of plate on the keys on a clarinet is a matter of finger feel preferance rather than anything to do with the tone. More important is the quiet smooth mechanics the keys, springs, and levers effectively closing the pads. It seems to be more physics than accoustics.
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Author: BobD
Date: 2004-10-11 14:40
I believe the "saxophone community" believes that removing the lacquer from the body of a sax affects its tone but, of course, that has nothing to do with clarinets and their keys. I like the line from der Rosenkavalier to wit: "The majority of things in the world are such that one would not believe them if told...." Human belief has no bounds and defies science.
Bob Draznik
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2004-10-11 14:47
avumba wrote: "As a test one could close there eyes while playing several clarinets and attempt to name the type of plate each has."
avumba also wrote: "IMO the type of plate on the keys on a clarinet is a matter of finger feel preferance rather than anything to do with the tone."
What would a blindfold test help if you can feel what plating it is? Hmmm... play with rubber gloves?
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2004-10-11 14:59
A test would be for one player to finger the clarinet (barrel turned around) with one person and the player to blow only. Making sure that the person fingering the clarinet uses the same finger pressure both time as that matters as well.
But again it would be measuring the quality of the Clarinets too!!!!
So not accurate
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Author: lycfmtkl
Date: 2004-10-11 15:08
" I have a Clarinet with rubber cup pads and plastic keys
Can anyone name the brand?"
Is it a Lyons C clarinet ?
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Author: JMcAulay
Date: 2004-10-11 18:13
It is interesting to read all the comments, most of which describe disbelief that key plating can make a difference in sounds.. Yet there is a post from a former skeptic who has actually tried several comparable Clarinets (okay, NOT identical) and was surprised to find a noticeable difference.
Curious, eh?
It is always a bit strange to me that so many people insist that they don't believe anything they can't explain. Yet billions just keep on reproducing with little or no appreciation of all the complexities of the procedure.
Curious also that oxfeely, who seemed quite serious about wanting to discuss this topic, hasn't tossed in any comments. Maybe he's too busy to be on the net today.
Regards,
John
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2004-10-11 19:00
Many good comments, I like BobD's [RosenK] and John Mc's. For what help it might be, Gershwin said "'Taint Necessarily So", with a line "And There are People Who Believe in Storks' . I've found much wisdom in lines from our musicals !! Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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Author: donald
Date: 2004-10-11 19:21
bloomin' heck Gordon, you're so heavy!
given that some very very good players THINK that there's a difference, i was just trying to imagine how this could be (that they THINK there's a difference). My preference is for what looks best, however at least one nickel plated Clarinet has been good enough that i would have it if it was/had been for sale... regardless of how ratty it looks.
and of course you are right! but it was just an idea.
i'm very sorry that you don't understand what is mean by "vibrant" in the context of playing the clarinet. If you play my R13 next to that of NZer Yvette Audain, maybe you would understand the difference. One (sadly not mine) feels more "vibrant" than the other.
good point about the plastic keys- yes very smart.
my post "posing as something technical"? ..... you think i'm treading on your territory because i suggested a clarinet could feel more or less "vibrant"?
just relax for goodness sake!
donald
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Author: JTS
Date: 2004-10-11 21:39
Gordon,
Dont get so worked up about key plating. I am not trying to convince you of anything, just something I had noticed. Sorry there were no blid folds : ), but I have tried several (about 20) G series clarinets, some Bflat some A, about half silver and half Hamilton. At the yamaha studio here in New York (Where Tomoji Hirakata does excellent work I might add!!!). If you haven't tried the G series yet, give them a try. Forget the plating, just interesting to check out. And you may be right, it is quite possible that I am just a little insane!
JTS
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2004-10-12 02:31
Wow!
What a heavy reaction.
There is absolutely no way any anecdotal claims can be considered to have any substance until all other parameters are eliminated in a demonstration. It seems that no effort has been made to do so in the claims of this thread.
There is just so much nonsense attached to woodwind instruments, and I thought the world of clarinet was relatively sane compared with sax and flute.
First one person makes some outrageous claim, then a couple of years later it is accepted by half the playing population as fact. Ridiculous.
Well I'd like to start another, just to illustrate.
Have you noticed that:
1. Clarinets with stainless steel pivot rods impart a brighter, cleaner tone than do steel ones?
2. Did you know that Buffet uses that soft polymer locking material on their pivot screws to bring about a certain mellowness in the tone?
3. Did you know that the body of clarinets is often dyed black on the outside to give a darker tone?
Well you had better believe it, because professor of clarinet, Fred Spoons has noticed all of these things, from playing on a variety of different instruments.
Is that light enough for everybody? :-)
Post Edited (2004-10-12 02:32)
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Author: VermontJM
Date: 2004-10-12 02:42
I think most are more concerned with their clarinets looking "pretty". I will say, though... I am kind of wishing I had gone with the silver plating simply because the oils in my fingers have completing eaten through all of the plating on my rings, f/c key and ab key. I am through the nickel silver, through the copper and straight down to the metal of the key. I figure that in another 10 years, I will need new keys altogether because I will have eaten through the keywork completely. lol.
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Author: oxfeely
Date: 2004-10-12 19:24
JMcAulay,
I have not entered the discussion because, as a newcomer, I felt quite intrusive in what became increasingly obviously to me a tight-knit insider community. My earlier observations were often treated with open scorn and ridicule instead of discussion, or even practical challenge or debate. I tried very specificly in my original post on the subject to only present my observations, and not judge other people's posted comments ,however people seemed to take personal offense to my findings.
Perhaps I over-read into the intent of many of the participating posters, but much of what they implied was disrespectful - such as subsequent immediate posts designed to talk about how professional obeservations are dismissable as mere "myths" - - the very word Myth implies ridicule.
I have gone back and briefly read some older topics and have found a few interesting, dynamic participants on the site. I hope that when I have (all too frequently) encountered the message "Post Edited" it is referring to some clarinetist editing a typo, and not big-brother deciding for clarinetists what might be "wrong thoughts". Actually, I really wish that the site would indicate the difference between "censored by controllers" and "revised by poster".
Shoudn't every post on this site have the implicit understanding that "this is based on my personal experiences performing and playing the clarinet"?? As such, posts should be for sharing personal experiences.
I must say an emphatic Sorry to the majority of posters that all too correctly pointed out that I was being ridiculous with my all-too-many postings on that thread - it was late at night, and my new, excited anticipation at joining a clarinet discussion had suddenly gone horribly wrong. Probably my fault, I guess.
I will wait a while, observe more uncontroversial, or at least non overtly problem-causing posts, and will join in later when I get the hang of things.
In the meanwhile, I have enjoyed reading all the posts about plating, and was relieved to discover that, according to William, the posting community has "destroyed any allegation that says the plating of the keys affects the tone of the instrument". I now don't have to worry about that issue any more . . .
Post Edited (2004-10-12 19:31)
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2004-10-12 19:52
oxfeely wrote:
> I
> hope that when I have (all too frequently) encountered the
> message "Post Edited" it is referring to some clarinetist
> editing a typo, and not big-brother deciding for clarinetists
> what might be "wrong thoughts". Actually, I really wish that
> the site would indicate the difference between "censored by
> controllers" and "revised by poster".
Asking is always a good thing; either here or via personal emails.
[ As pointed out by a reader, I made an error in an original statement here - I had said that edits are clearly marked ]
All editorial comments made by the moderators are clearly marked. Often deletions to postings are not marked for various reasons, but the poster is almost always notified.
It has always been good netiquette for newcomers to spend some time observing a BBoard or mailing list to get the "flavor" of the list, and ask questions of the moderators (if any) before posting.
After some time, if you think there is moderation of "wrong thoughts" or "big brotherism" on such a BBoard then perhaps it isn't the one for you.
Another thing you may find out is that everyone gets questions about their opinions on things. Opinions are cheap and not everyone's is of the same value. Also, be prepared to back up your opinions; we all assume that they didn't come out of the aether, but have some rationale behind them. You may be questioned more strongly that you imagined you would be.
Post Edited (2004-10-13 01:26)
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Author: oxfeely
Date: 2004-10-12 20:42
Interesting . . .
I would have assumed that the "flavor" of this site to be that of shared experiences on the clarinet. Did I get that wrong - - I don't understand why you bring that up.
However, if you create a site called The Clarinet BBoard, then it is a site for clarinetists. (not some selected,sympathetic clarinetists)
You said:
"Another thing you may find out is that everyone gets questions about their opinions on things. Opinions are cheap and not everyone's is of the same value. Also, be prepared to back up your opinions; we all assume that they didn't come out of the aether, but have some rationale behind them. You may be questioned more strongly that you imagined you would be"
Questions on my opinions - - yes! Excellent!
"Opinions are cheap"?? No, absolutely not! Opinions make a great contribution to this site - if you step back from your now-unavoidable disdain for my presence here you could look back on a wealth of controversial, opinionated and useful to our clarinet community opinions by the site's participants, and realize this.
"Not everyone's is of the same value" - - well, let our readers pick and choose the tid-bits of wisdom they might glean from sources that you choose to write-off as "not of value". You should be the moderator, not the evaluator.
"Have some rationale"? What is more relevant or valid than first-hand experience? Also, my relating the first hand experiences of clarinet players and teachers who I greatly admire, isn't that also of interest to us? I have purposely left out those specific names and left my observations purely credited to myself - - I have seen on this site the knee jerk reaction when anyone mentions any specific players - - just watch what happens when anyone mentions Richard Stoltzman, for example.
Finally, "I may be questioned more stongly than I inagined I might be" - - actually I an daily critiqued and challenged far more strongly than I thought I might ever be by my music dirctor and by guest conductors. Their expectations stretch my ability to its maximum. So of course, I am constantly evaluating and re-evaluating every facet of my hardware and my performance every day. I find this self-questionioning and the evaluative questioning of the Music Director who has the power to fire me at will (no Union here) to be an everyday reality. I expect, welcome, and am quite comfortable with fellow clarinetists on this site questioning the elements of my findings.
Post Edited (2004-10-12 20:45)
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Author: diz
Date: 2004-10-12 22:43
As to plating - who gives a tincker's cuss?? Just play your clarinet instead of worrying about the unproveable ...
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Author: D Dow
Date: 2004-10-13 01:56
The plating on my clarinets look like crap...yet constantly I get compliments on my wonderful sound....I think it is more the morphology and shape of the player that affects the tone most...
What about boxwood or rosewood...these are far more likely to change tonal properties...I think the arguement has to have a scientific study to prove such a theory//
David Dow
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Author: diz
Date: 2004-10-13 03:49
David Dow ... one thing's for certain: urine in the mixture improves violins no end ... just ask anyone who knows anything about Stradavarius fiddles.
Without music, the world would be grey, very grey.
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Author: Phat Cat
Date: 2004-10-13 10:48
Un-plated brass keys produce a bold, trumpet-like sound
Solid nickel-silver keys produce a solid, consistent sound
Nickel-plated keys produce a bright, shiny sound
Silver-plated keys produce a mellow, burnished sound
Keys with plating wear result in notes with undertones coming through
Loose keys produce an slack, unstable tone
Off keys result in poor intonation
Florida keys result in lime pie
Post hoc, ergo helicopter prop
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2004-10-13 12:40
And the ring keys, which are primarily made from flesh, plated with skin, have a soft, squishy (not solid), damp (not dry), corrugated (not smooth) sound, with some added firmness provided by the nails. However if the nails are plated (painted) with any particular colour, then a colour therapist would need to be consulted to determine the effect on the tone. This may or may not override the underlying rather unsupported sound, depending on the translucency of the paint.
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Author: Brenda Siewert
Date: 2004-10-13 12:59
JMc, I have to agree with your beginning statements. After 45 years of playing the clarinet under all kinds of circumstances and with all kinds of people in many different countries and with many different brands and platings--I don't believe the plating of the keys makes a difference. The only difference could be in the different way the keys feel in the hands and perhaps a variation of the way it is held due to the "slippery vs. less slippery" feel of the silver vs. nickel.
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Author: sbbishop
Date: 2004-10-13 15:09
I think I can offer some actual experience gained information to this discussion.
The nickel keys on my almost fifty year old clarinet still look good, and seem to work good.
However, my sound is bad.
Therefore, the keys must be the cause.
Does anyone have some silver plated keys for sale?
Please take this as intended, tongue in cheek, etc. etc.
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Author: JTS
Date: 2004-10-13 18:21
Just a question. Has anyone else out there tried any number of the same model with different key plating? Also has anyone tried the "G" series. While my findings were certainly not scientific, it seems that not many posters here have been in any situation in which the key plating could possibly have any influence on the tone color. I think most of you have the right idea, that being who really cares. And don't worry, if your instrument has worn key plating, I don't think that you have a bad tone. The change, IF ANY, would probably be very small, not the difference between a beautiful sound and an ugly one.
JTS
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Author: msloss
Date: 2004-10-13 18:48
I'm not saying that I subscribe to the theory of sonic variation from plating, but I also cannot rule it out. Acoustically, the clarinet is basically a radiator, not a horn. Most of the sound's characteristics come from the dimensions of the instrument and the player's oral cavity, but there are qualitative and quantitative differences that come from the material from which the instrument (the full body and all its attached parts) is made. The keys are part of a complex resonant mechanism along with the reed, ligature, and rings. There is going to be some interaction between the key material and the body to which they are mechanically fastened, no matter how minute.
The keys are also not acoustically transparent, so sound emanating from the tone holes is going to be affected by reflection off them. Add to that high frequencies diffracted around the body of the instrument and the keywork will also interact with the surfaces of the wood and the metal. By the same token, the clothes you wear, the angle of your music stand, and the temperature/humidity of the room are all factors among many others that interact with and contribute to whatever we can identify as the core sound of the clarinet.
We have to be subjectivists because, unless some lunatic grad student (in music or material sciences) decides to actually study this quantitatively for a thesis, opinion and experience is all we have to go on. Difficult to prove as fact, difficult to disprove as myth.
Now if you don't mind, I'm going to go put my tinfoil hat back on before the aliens escape Area 51 and start beaming Acker Bilk tunes directly into my brain.
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Author: Bart Hendrix
Date: 2004-10-13 19:42
If we accept the thesis that plating makes a difference in the tone of the instrument, wouldn't that imply that any given instrument would be constantly changing tone as the plating thins and eventually wears through with use? Maybe we should just hope that the instrument blows out before this becomes a problem.
And what about the elasticity of the skin and the resonance of the bone of the finger holding the key down?
;^}
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Author: Igloo Bob
Date: 2004-10-14 02:22
I just did a little math.
I'm told by the members of this board that 99% of the tone is completely depedent on the player.
So, that would have to mean that the remaining 1% is being divided into the following areas: mouthpieces, ligatures, reeds, material the instrument is made of, bore size, bore shape, barrel, bell, what type of underwear you're wearing, and key plating.
That's 10 parts. 1/10 - 0.1% of the sound.
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2004-10-14 04:08
Not true. You are assuming that the items in your list are all equal contributors.
So we're getting mathematical now.....
In spite of my previous posts, I actually think plating DOES affect the sound, perhaps 0.00000001% of the sound. And I think the orientation of the bell possibly contributes similarly, as does the amount of nail polish on the finger nails.
I think the quantity and length of the hairs in the player's nose would have about 10 times that effect, because the nose is a resonance chamber, having perhaps 0.000001% effect on the sound.
Post Edited (2004-10-14 04:08)
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Author: oxfeely
Date: 2004-10-14 04:53
I think it is a matter of different materials dampening vibration in different ways. For instance, a leather ligature such as the BG Revelation dampens certain frequencies in a particular way creating a unique tonal coloration. If you opt for the gold plated Super-Revelation (the plating is on the metal reed touch-piece) then the dampening qualities are altered. If you opt for the new Silver plated BG Revelation, the qualities are altered in a different way.
Plating on metal ligatures certainly makes a huge difference in dampening/allowing vibration. You can get a Bonade ligature in nickel, silver or it is possible to find them in gold as well. The effects of each plating are readily apparent.
Of course as a ligature is at the top of the clainet, directly applied to the source of the vibrations in the reed, it will make a more profound effect to the tone production than other plating factors found farther down the clainet. How about the bell for instance? With a metal ring or no ring? How about a wooden ring? How about no rings or a wooden ring on the barrel? Plastic rings? Of course the composition of these objects that we affix to the wood make a difference in the way the wood is allowed to vibrate.
The way the body of the clarinet vibrates is also crucial, creating much of the special colors that we all seek out. A "broken in" instrument will vibrate differently than a new one. Every piece of metal that we affix to the wood has an dampening effect to some degree on the vibration of the wood. For instance, my repairman once cautioned me about relocating my thumb rest in a higher position (in the old days before the niffty adjustable thumb rests). It would be, in effect, applying a fixed spot of dampening on a different area of the clarinet, and we would have no way of actually knowing how it might affect things until we tried it - - in that case, we moved it only a small amount, and I found no dfference to the sound afterward. However, when I was a student and practicing up a storm on the E-flat for some audition or another and my thumb began to get sore from long hours practicing, I tried applying one of the black Runyon mouthpiece patches directly on the wood under the thumb rest to give some cushion. It made a great cushion, but the tonal alteration was dramatic - it had dampened a considerable amount of the "sparkle" in the tone.
Of course, the reed, the mouthpiece, the ligature, the taper of the barrel and the particular minor variations in manufacture from instrument to instrument all make more of an immediate difference to our tone. But it is still useful to consider how vibration might be being dampened all over the instrument.
The composition of the keys affects the vibration. The question should really be whether you find it to be not significant enough for consideration.
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Author: donald
Date: 2004-10-14 08:38
(i can't beleive that this is still going on!)
Gordon- in fact the "orientation of the bell" is considered to be quite important by many accomplished performers, for very good reason.
There is a fairly good chance that the joint is not lined up concentrically (oops, sorry if that sounds pretentious, it's a technical word isn't it?) and this can have an effect on the acoustics of the instrument that i'm sure can be easily measured in some way. For the same reasons some barrels may have an orientation at which they will perform the best, and the quality of the corking job on the mouthpiece is also very crucial. For the bell the "concentricallity" (or whatever) is especially important in cases when the bell is designed to have a "choke" effect (ie, the top of the bell bore is smaller than the bottom of the lower joint).
while this is indeed merely more "anecdotal evidence" passed on for years by world class musicians (yes, i didn't just think it up myself) it's actually a lot more sensible than worrying about the plating, and an acoustic scientist from AU standing next to me as i type assures me that a missalignment of the bore could be scientifically proven to disturb the performance of the instrument. To suggest that it has only ".00000001%" influence on the sound could be true in some cases, but fairly massively incorrect in many in others.
donald
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2004-10-14 14:24
Are you claiming that if I stick a couple of layers of sellotape inside one side of your bell, near its upper end, then it will be obvious to you when you play the instrument - every time I do it?
Hmmm. Pretty easy to test I guess.
Until demonstrated in such a test, the sceptic in me will stick to my guess at 0.0000....% - whatever.
I think that you are probably right if the misalignment was say 6 mm but it would affect only a few notes. But 6 mm would be impossible.
What you say is maybe a little more credible with a barrel, but that is not what I wrote about.
Cheers.
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Author: Avie
Date: 2004-10-14 14:43
This topics longevity has at least expanded our thinking that clarinet tone production is made up of an acculation of more minute circumstances than previously imagined. While a minute figure was used just to stress a point the immeasurable ".ooooooo1%" figure may be streaching the point a bit but was probably used to emphasize an acculation of many influences on the tone of a clarinet. Maybe .o2% :-)
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2004-10-14 14:51
I just grabbed a piece of nylon(?) sheet, 40 x 27 x 1 mm, and jammed it into the upper end of my bell, so that it reduced the radius of the bore by about 1 mm for about 2/3 of the circumference.
....And played the clarinet. It made not a blind bit of difference to the way my clarinet played.
But then you could claim my ears need overhauling or educating, so I have proved nothing.
Perhaps others could try similar tests. I used a piece cut from a 50 ml disposable syringe, but pieces of ice-cream carton would probably do.
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Author: Vytas
Date: 2004-10-14 17:18
***But then you could claim my ears need overhauling or educating***
Your ears only?
Vytas Krass
Professional clarinet technician
Custom clarinet mouthpiece maker
Former professional clarinet player
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Author: oxfeely
Date: 2004-10-14 21:02
Mr. Vytas-
You wrote:
"***But then you could claim my ears need overhauling or educating***
Your ears only?
Vytas Krass
Professional clarinet technician
Custom clarinet mouthpiece maker
Former professional clarinet player" "
Whose ears do you imply to be needing an "overhauling or educating"
This comment seems poised to garner a few heated responses . . .
Post Edited (2004-10-14 21:07)
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Author: BobD
Date: 2004-10-14 21:07
An interesting set of comments indeed. Looking back, the original comment was a belief that plating affected "tonal coloration". I guess I don't completely understand(if at all) what tonal coloration is comprised of. But I can imagine that when playing some piece of music one's "being" is affected by how the keys feel and that in turn can affect the tonal coloration. How does one measure tonal coloration.....I certainly don't have a clue. And, Mr.Oxfeeley, stick around and you will discover that we are not a closed community and rather open about opinions......
Bob Draznik
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Author: oxfeely
Date: 2004-10-14 21:11
BobD,
Thanks for an encouraging remark. I think I'll stick around to discover more interesting participants on this site like yourself.
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Author: oxfeely
Date: 2004-10-14 21:49
""***But then you could claim my ears need overhauling or educating***
Your ears only?
Vytas Krass
Professional clarinet technician
Custom clarinet mouthpiece maker
Former professional clarinet player""
So, Vytas, what you are saying is:
Gordon, not only Your ears need overhauling and educating."
Whose other ears?
Post Edited (2004-10-14 21:57)
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2004-10-14 21:57
"Your ears only?"
I took the emphasis to be on the word "ears", meaning that my playing, and all associated body parts possibly needed overhauling as well, and laughed.
But it seems that one could put the emphasis on "your", with a very different meaning.
Doesn't the air here get warm when we stray into people's treasured belief systems and 'cult' followings!
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Author: Vytas
Date: 2004-10-14 22:28
oxfeely,
Gordon got it right. I was responding to his nonsensical test which has nothing to do with tonal coloration but rather tuning. Also I haven't expressed ANY opinion on the subject yet but it seams I've been associated with some 'cult' followings! So let him laugh.
Vytas Krass
Professional clarinet technician
Custom clarinet mouthpiece maker
Former professional clarinet player
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2004-10-14 23:46
"....I was responding to his nonsensical test which has nothing to do with tonal colouration but rather tuning. .."
Nonsensical?
I was doing a test to see what happened with an edge protruding into the bore on one side of the bore, this being more or less what happens when a bell & body with non-concentric bores is rotated.
And I was indeed listening to tone changes rather than pitch changes. Actually I was just mildly surprised that there was no discernible effect on pitch either.
Perhaps it may be slightly relevant here that flutes and saxophones can have quite large dents, interfering severely with the bore, with no discernible difference to the player, providing the pads still seal properly.
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Author: Vytas
Date: 2004-10-15 00:21
Gordon,
The bell is a huge tone hole for low E/B and has some effect on several other low notes. Removing or adding the material as much as 2mm from/to the bell on the LJ side will affect above mentioned notes not only pitch wise but also how these notes respond. Why don't you do your test on the mouthpiece or the barrel where the results are more obvious?
Vytas Krass
Professional clarinet technician
Custom clarinet mouthpiece maker
Former professional clarinet player
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Author: D Dow
Date: 2004-10-15 02:12
My instrument is so tarnished that it improves the sound incredibly...
I think sound is created internally...try playing with a head cold or running nose....this certainly changes you perception rather than the perception in the audience..
After a certain point long arguements become quite dull...I polished my clarinet while reading this one...
David Dow
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2004-10-15 14:43
Vytas wrote
<<<The bell is a huge tone hole for low E/B and has some effect on several other low notes. Removing or adding the material as much as 2mm from/to the bell on the LJ side will affect above mentioned notes not only pitch wise but also how these notes respond. Why don't you do your test on the mouthpiece or the barrel where the results are more obvious?>>
I appreciate that, Vytas. In theory that is completely true, but in practice, in my experiment, the effect was totally non-discernible, probably simply because that tone hole is so huge. Perhaps fluid mechanics throws some explanation on this... A reduction in cross-sectional area which is very small compared to the original cross-sectional area will make negligible effect on fluid flow. I appreciate that fluid flow mechanics many other factors are involved, adn that fluid mechanics may not be directly applicable, but does illustrate the concept. Try half crushing the garden hose - little effect on flow, until noisy turbulence is created.) A reduction of the same size would have a big effect on a small-diameter, deep tone hole of the upper section, but not for a huge tone hole.
When I corrected the tuning of my Emerson Alto flute (with huge tone holes) , I had to make drastic reductions in some tone hole sizes to have significant influence on pitch. (... or, surprising me, tone.)
The barrel you mention is a red herring, because a barrel is not a tone hole.
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Author: Phat Cat
Date: 2004-10-15 22:10
At the risk of being flamed by those who know better, I offer the following reference to a actual controlled study regarding whether the material of the body of a flute affects its sound.
Widholm, G., Linortner, R., Kausel, W. and Bertsch, M. (2001) "Silver, gold, platinum--and the sound of the flute" Proc. International Symposium on Musical Acoustics, Perugia. D.Bonsi, D.Gonzalez, D.Stanzial, eds, pp 277-280.
They used seven flutes constructed by Muramatsu of: solid silver, 9 kt gold, 14 kt gold, 24 kt gold, solid platinum, platinum plated and silver plated. They were all the same model, differing only in material. Seven professional flutists from the Vienna Philharmonic and the Vienna Opera Orchestra played them, and were also part of the listening panel of 15 experienced professional players. In two different sets of blind listening, no instrument was correctly identified in one, and in the second, only the solid silver instrument was identified by a significant fraction of the listeners. The authors conclude that there was 'no evidence that the wall material has any appreciable effect on the sound color or dynamic range of the instrument'.
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Author: Avie
Date: 2004-10-15 23:32
Phat Chat. That study may be more effective on a reed instrument.
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Author: JMcAulay
Date: 2004-10-16 18:06
Boehm himself (a good metallurgist in his day) reportedly tested various materials for flute construction, finding silver to be superior from standpoints of both tone quality and "player fatigue."
Regards,
John
Opinions are like noses. Everybody has one, and some smell better than others.
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2004-10-17 13:41
Why, evumba?
The same almost certainly applies to clarinets.
We need not to be confused with OTHER issues particularly relevant to clarinets:
1. Attention to the detail of undercutting tone holes is likely to be a lot more thorough with non-student instruments, and may well account for much of any tone/response issues associated with pro instruments.
2. Presumably student instruments (normally plastic) have bore & tone hole configurations designed specifically to suit beginners. Nothing to do with them being plastic. LIkewise pro instruments, typically timber, are designed with the needs of pro players in mind, the material being timber by popular request, not that it NEEDS to be timber.
3. The nature of the surface of the bore probably has significant relevance. It is entirely possible that the rougher bore of a timber clarinet CONTRIBUTES to a particular sound. It is possible that plastic instruments could be IMPROVED by roughening the bore. I have heard - possibly a myth - that pro oboe players have been known to drag steel wool through their new oboe to roughen the surface and improve the tone. But this is an issue of the SURFACE, not the material as such.
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2004-10-17 13:44
The flute material research that Phat Cat mentioned can be viewed at
http://iwk.mdw.ac.at/Forschung/english/linortner/linortner_e.htm
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Author: Wes
Date: 2004-10-19 09:06
Having owned a gold plated oboe for a while, I found that I liked the feel of the keys very much. The sound of this fine and in-tune oboe was too bright and not what one would get from a Loree, so I sold it. The big time oboe dealer who found a customer for me told me in all seriousness that the gold made it sound better.
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The Clarinet Pages
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