 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: beejay
Date: 2004-10-06 22:40
I try to play quietly out of consideration for neighbors, and I'm mostly into chamber music anyway. But having recently been promoted from third to to second clarinet in my orchestra, I'm called on to play solo and other passages much louder than I'm accustomed to. The trouble is that I just cannot get much volume out of my combination of Charles Bay mouthpiece and No. 3 reeds. Should I be playing harder reeds, in which case I find it very hard to manage staccato and ppp passages, or should I be looking for a more open mouthpiece. -- and if so, what? The Vandoren blurb tells me that a B40 gives a fuller sound from softer reeds and that the M30 gives a similar result with less effort. Before I head off to the store to try some MPCs, can anyone offer advice? I'm a bit torn here between my teacher, who says I have a beautiful tone and should not mess with it, and my conductor who complains he cannot hear me in comparison to the first clarinet. Many thanks.
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Author: hans
Date: 2004-10-06 22:54
beejay,
If trying different mouthpieces/reeds/barrels doesn't give you the extra volume, perhaps you could borrow or rent a larger bore clarinet to see if that gives it to you.
Also, you could ask the first clarinet what equipment she or he is using to see what might be causing the difference in your volumes.
If you find a good solution to the problem, I hope that you will post it.
Regards,
Hans
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Author: Ray
Date: 2004-10-07 00:00
You can get more volume by blowing harder. I am not trying to be funny. I notice that many of the players I can't hear are just not pushing much air. Maybe they are shy or just have never tried to get a really loud sound. I don't know why they're so soft. Do you see the red faces on the horn players? Does your face ever get red? Well, maybe it shouldn't, but I hope you get my point.
I also notice that the quiet players usually take too little mouthpiece into their mouths. When you take too little, you probably don't put your bottom lip where the reed begins to leave the table of the mouthpiece. You put your lip closer to the tip which damps the reed and leads to a small sound. It usually leads to a poor sound also. Your teacher feels you have a good sound, so maybe you're not doing this.
Maybe you have a resistant setup on a resistant clarinet. This gets you great "hold" but it does restrict your volume a bit.
I don't think a harder reed will help unless you are relying on a really soft reed to help you to play so softly. In that case you will probably collapse that wimpy reed when you really blow.
I think I can play pretty loud. I think I have a big dynamic range. But each time I hear a professional play I find out I don't really. But still, I have a bigger dynamic range than many of the people I play with. Its something I work on, because it is not easy to play loud with a good sound and good intonation.
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Author: beejay
Date: 2004-10-07 00:05
Hans,
we both play Buffet Crampon RC clarinets. The first clarinettist plays gorgeously on a Pomarico glass mpc, but I've never got on well with those. The reason I mention the Vandoren B40 is that I get good results with one of those on my basset horn. And I've read lots of good things about the M30 on this bulletin board. The one mouthpiece I have never really liked is the ubiquitous Vandoren B45. I'll go on using my Charles Bay for most occasions. All I need is something that blows in tune for the loud passages (like the ones we had at tonight's rehearsal in Bizet's L'Arlesienne), which I would not like to inflict on our kind neighbors.
Regards
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Author: beejay
Date: 2004-10-07 00:10
Ray,
Blowing harder and opening up the throat pushes me flat. I'm a bit stymied here, because as I say, I deliberately keep my playing at low volume to keep peace with neighbors. Perhaps I should take my clarinet into the woods and let rip.
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2004-10-07 00:10
The problem is that you aren't projecting your tone and your teacher either can't hear it or doesn't care about that.
Projection is VERY important when playing in an Orchestra.
Go to Radio Shack and get yourself a $40 Decibel Meter - practice with that to get a louder tone.
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Author: beejay
Date: 2004-10-07 00:23
David,
My teacher is always talking about projection, but clearly I'm not getting it right in the orchestra. Radio Shack, which pulled out of France several years ago, is one of those good things I really miss.
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Author: super20dan
Date: 2004-10-07 00:38
none of the vandoreens (except the 5jb) gave me any more projection or volume. i did get quite a bit more out of a larry coombs 3 and deg acubore barrel . your buffet is fine
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Author: mbyerly
Date: 2004-10-07 01:04
You shouldn't expect to be able to play loudly if you never practice playing loudly. Before you start messing with equipment, you might try simply incorporating loud playing into your practice every day, or as often as possible. There must be some time during the day when the neighbors won't mind.
You might also be trying too hard when asked to play loudly. Relax, and think "full," not "forced."
And if you're having problems with your pitch going flat, the answer is simple: don't let your pitch go flat. Pitch and volume don't need to be connected, and you can make the choice to keep them separated.
- Michael
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Author: marcia
Date: 2004-10-07 01:21
If Ihad a dime for every time I have heard this I would be rich.......More air!!
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Author: hans
Date: 2004-10-07 02:53
beejay,
Another thread made refence to playing sax and that seems like it should help too; i.e., you could try playing tenor sax (or even better, baritone) for a few weeks to build up your lung power.
I sure notice how little air the clarinet requires when I've been playing tenor sax for a while.
regards,
Hans
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2004-10-07 14:13
beejay -
Here's something I wrote a couple of years ago:
Playing louder involves two things -- actual volume, and getting more energy in your sound.
Getting more volume is actually not difficult. Here's an exercise that appeared in the Leblanc Bell magazine, which I've recommended several times, and best of all it costs nothing.
Stuff a balled-up cotton swab or handkerchief up the bell, finger third-line B and blow hard. You'll get a dreadful sounding Eb (approximately). Work on it, dropping your jaw and blowing harder and harder until you get an almost normal tone.
Then experiment with your tongue, soft palate and jaw positions to find the higher overtones and practice bugle calls.
Finally, pull out the swab. You'll get about twice as much volume as before. It takes some practice to learn to let enough air go through without using the swab first, but it's definitely doable.
Making a more energetic sound is a longer term proposition. It involves getting enough air, and then voicing the sound, again with your tongue and soft palate, and finding a "ping" of high frequency. See http://www.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/read.html?f=1&i=43807&t=43777 .
Then, combine the two. Get the recordings of Pablo Casals playing the Bach Solo Celllo Suites. Play the first 5 seconds of one, and then match his emotional and tonal intensity. Do the same thing with John McCormack and other great singers.
There's more at http://www.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/read.html?f=1&i=59103&t=58998 . In particular, you should read the linked Arnold Jacobs materials.
Best regards.
Ken Shaw
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Author: BobD
Date: 2004-10-07 22:49
It's like lifting weights....you have to practice playing louder to get your "system" stronger...stomach muscles, throat muscles, lung capacity etc etc. it's a physical thing for openers
Bob Draznik
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2004-10-08 00:20
And what about "DA-20 Power Barrel"?
http://www.doctorsprod.com/forte.html
Or does it not possess the right etiquette in its tone for orchestral playing?
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Author: GEM
Date: 2004-10-08 20:13
You may need to work on breath support - pushing more air with your diaphram. If all you are pushing with is chest muscles, you will not have enough power for volume (nor control for ppp). You can try using a vocalist's excercise for building up diaphram power. Stand up with your spine as straight as possible. Place both hands lightly on your diaphram. This muscle is located just below your sternum (breastbone). Blow all the air out of your lungs, then breathe in as much as you can while trying to push your diaphram out against your hands. Hold your breath for a second or two, then let it out a tiny bit and try to inhale some more. When you feel like you're going to burst, hold your breath a few seconds, then push all of the air out of your lungs as fast as you can while tightening the diaphram muscle. Repeat this a few times, but don't do it so much that you pass out or hyperventillate. Eventually, this will strengthen the diaphram and you will become more conscious of your breathing while playing. It should also give you more power for volume.
GEM
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2004-10-09 01:45
GEM, the gorup of muscles that you refer to as "diaphragm" are actually the "abdominal" muscles. The diaphragm is well out of reach of fingers, apploximately horizontal, and it CANNOT push. It is used for inhaling.
A search will find more detail on this topic.
Post Edited (2004-10-09 10:27)
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Author: ken
Date: 2004-10-09 03:07
Dynamic levels are relative to group instrumentation and climate. If it was me, I'd first focus on matching the level of the Principal clarinet and section, and not be concerned with the overall volume of the orchestra. Forte on an unaccompanied solo is not the same as supporting a melody and/or leading an entire orchestra. I'd have to hear for myself, but I'm not convinced there's anything lacking in beejay's "raw" volume. The orchestra (and conductor often encouraging it) could be unawares playing 1 or 2 notches up from where they should be. This scenario, and chain reaction can plague even the finest ensemble. With any orchestra or concert band, loud, louder, loudest is the easy part; playing softly with control, balance, sensitivity, in tune and with a reciprocal pitch center is what's challenging. Regrettably, if someone doesn't catch it and keep dynamic levels within reason, most players will revert to "survival of the fittest" mode. Blastissimo and a deaf conductor, as well as the ensemble unable-unwilling to bring the volume down might be the culprit.
If the Bay mpc is not closed being on average 3 strength reeds, again volume might not be the issue. If an intermediate player or better, and determined to change set-up, I don't see anything chop-risky moving to the next open size, but on the SAME brand mpc, and up 1/4-1/2 in reed strength. I'd say definitely spend time every day practicing at forte, but of course, the equipment can only help so much. v/r Ken
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Author: GEM
Date: 2004-10-09 14:46
Gordon (NZ),
See
teacher.sduhsd.k12.ca.us/bbodas/Ch37.1Respiration.ppt
The diaphram and abdominal muscles interact. The description of the exercise, while not in precise anatomical phrasing for simplicity's sake, is nonetheless valid. It is one I personally used and have taught to others. It is a great way of building up one's breath support necessary for singing, public speaing and playing an instrument.
By the way, Ken is spot on in his statement that volume in a group is a relative thing and a hearing-impaired conductor will ask for more from the group. The only non-arbitrary measure of volume is with a decibel meter, but one must practice in varying levels. A good exercise for this is to take a deep breath and play a single note, sustained for as long as one can. Start the note as ppp as possible, build up to as fff as possible, then let down to the original ppp again. Chances are you'll never need either end of the spectrum, but wouldn't you rather have it and not need it - than need it and not have it?
GEM
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2004-10-09 16:51
That's why I said to use a decibel meter - so you can measure your progress.
But note that the level of volume read by the meter changes very, very much depending on the note. The higher you play the more decibels will be read but your tone won't actually be louder to the ear (what counts).
It's probably the reflection of the higher notes that causes that (lower notes get absorbed more).
So only use it 1 note at a time to compare previous volume levels and always place it the same distance from your clarinet as that makes a huge difference too.
You can get about 110 decibels at an open G with the meter right next to the tone hole pretty easily.
I challenge students by using the meter combined with the tuner to try keeping the needle on 0 for being in tune while going through the various dynamic levels
FUN
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Author: beejay
Date: 2004-10-13 15:16
I just wanted to say thank you to all who answered my query. I put several of your pieces of advice to good use, and am getting a much bigger sound using the same mouthpiece. Mainly, I think it was a question of pushing more air through the clarinet and being a little less timid about risking a squeak.
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