 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: VermontJM
Date: 2004-09-19 05:56
So I stumbled upon this earlier tonight...
http://www7.mailordercentral.com/frederichweinerinc/prodinfo.asp?number=XR1BK&variation=&aitem=1&mitem=1
It's a bis key for clarinet. You know, like the one that saxes have to help play a Bb. I had kind of wondered why clarinets didn't have one, but never seriously thought about finding out if it was possible to get one on clarinet...
Does anyone out there use one of these, and does it really help?
Cheers!
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Author: Liquorice
Date: 2004-09-19 06:20
You can try it out without buying one by just pushing down the pad directly below the first finger of the left hand (which is exactly what this bis key does). I haven't tried it (my family are all still sleeping!), but I imagine that the B-flat produced would be quite sharp.
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Author: EEBaum
Date: 2004-09-19 06:30
"This optional fingering not only plays the note clearly, but it also plays the note in tune, giving the musician more confidence when he or she needs to play it in a passage. "
In tune? Wow!
:P
-Alex
www.mostlydifferent.com
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Author: allencole
Date: 2004-09-19 07:24
I doubt that anyone would be compelled to use a bis key at speeds slow enough for pitch to be a serious issue.
In fact, I am trying to imagine just how useful such a key would be, and am not so sure it's that worthwhile. The bis key is a beautiful accessory on the sax, but the nature of the clarinet is much different.
I'd be worried about hitting the thing by accident.
Allen Cole
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Author: GBK
Date: 2004-09-19 07:39
An interesting alternate D#4/Eb4 fingering which uses the bis key concept is:
Left hand:
Thumb
1st finger - closed
2nd finger depresses middle LH ring
3rd finger - closed
Pinky - open the C#/G# key
Right hand:
open
Obviously, the complexity of the fingering, limits its practical use...GBK
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2004-09-19 13:46
Haven't we discussed this thouroughly [sp?] before ? There are four! [+?] ways to play the Eb/Bb, more than for other notes !! On checking my cls and [repairing] others, I check these intonations routinely, and try to match the up. On cls with the 7th ring, the fork fingering can be very uselul. On bass and alto [and on saxes], the 1 and 1 are my favorites, or the lower trill key. I seldom use the [to me, usual] "BIS" banana key for 3rd finger L H. Some acoustical experts suggest removing this key and plugging the hole, as the 2 toneholes at the same location represent bore enlargement at that critical level in the L J !! Comments, please, Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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Author: VermontJM
Date: 2004-09-19 14:26
I did do a search and looked up everything that was previously written on the Bis Key- What I found was a bunch of posts that had speculation, and even a few "I'll buy it and try and get back to you" but very few actual people who had used it. I felt that the other posts were kind of left unfinished, which is why I chose to post this again. (I don't want you to think I was just being lazy....)
Soo.... has anyone actually gotten this thing and tried it for any amount of time?
:)
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2004-09-19 14:26
Dern it, on a "tear" this AM I guess, I meant the Upper Joint. Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2004-09-19 17:29
Hi,
I tried it, liked it, and then it fell off - unknown to me until later - into the grass at an outdoor concert and that was the last I saw of it. I went back and looked but....
I would opt to have someone solder a small piece of flat metal to the lower key and then just move my finger down when in a key with at least two flats that is at a brisk tempo. I do this on sax all the time and see no reason that it would not work on clarinet as long as intonation is not at risk.
HRL
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2004-09-19 21:38
Attempting to follow-up on my earlier post, I hasten to distinguish the above title from the Bis structures as discussed. I did a bit of "garage-type research" on my LeB Dyn 2 [a large bore 18/7 good player] re: removing the ban. key, and PLUGGING-off its tonr hole. I accomplished it by shaping a bit of cork to the hole size, inserting it at bore "level" then taping over the surface hole to stop any leakage. I BELIEVE on playing it now, the [btm. of staff] D is improved and I am sure that its 12th [A] is much better, in terms of speaking, sound and intonation. To me, this was a well-spent several hours and I may keep on doing this on other 7 ring horns, maybe on a 6 or so out of add'l. curiousity. Just wanted to share this with anyone interested, will welcome any/all comments. Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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Author: William
Date: 2004-09-20 00:48
My stand partner in municipal band had an extension soddered onto his Bb/Eb pad cup to serve as a "bis" key. Works for him. I've also seen some bass clarinets that Charles Bay has added bis key extensions using a dime or a nickle that work quite well.
However, I bought the bis key adaptor made by Runyon and installed it on one of my R13s. It kept getting in the way so I removed it and sold it. (still waiting to receive payment..........)
As a sax doubler, I never use the bis key on any of my saxes, opting for the side key Bb instead. So if I had a similar key installed on my clarinets, it would just cause problems--not ease them. I would rather have a third ring option for producting Bb/Eb--at least that mechanizm would not produce unwanted Bbs when only trying for B nat. Just my thnoughts for your consideration...........have fun.
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2004-09-20 01:50
William,
Yes, the third ring Eb/Bb is a handy one to have.
HRL
PS I did have an elementary sax student that took lessons from one of the top jazz sax players in the city (other than me, of course :-)) and the student learned only the Bis Key Bb. There was lots of sliding around at times. It took a long time for me, the school band director, to break that bad habit.
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Author: diz
Date: 2004-09-20 01:55
Gawd ... GBK ... tried that one
Left hand:
Thumb
1st finger - closed
2nd finger depresses middle LH ring
3rd finger - closed
Pinky - open the C#/G# key
I think you need to be sat in Lotus position with your legs over your head AND humming a zen mantra for it to work painlessly ... (duck's for cover)
Without music, the world would be grey, very grey.
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Author: JMcAulay
Date: 2004-09-21 20:10
I often use L2 to press down the pad cup on that first wee hole below L1. To me, that's a lot easier than depressing the L2 ring (which really can become uncomfortably depressing).
I am thoroughly unsure as to why a mechanical adjunct is needed to do it instead of what is to me the easy way.
Regards,
John
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2004-09-21 21:03
Hi John,
But that fingering will not work if you are descending to anything lower than the Eb/Ab since finger L2 will be out of position.
HRL
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Author: GBK
Date: 2004-09-21 22:25
Hank Lehrer wrote:
> But that fingering will not work if you are descending to
> anything lower than the Eb/Ab since finger L2 will be out of
> position.
Actually a good reason why the unusual fingering I posted for Eb4/D#4;
-------------------------
Left hand:
Thumb
1st finger - closed
2nd finger depresses middle LH ring
3rd finger - closed
Pinky - open the C#/G# key
Right hand:
open
-------------------------------
could be slightly better.
It is awkward, though ...GBK
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Author: VermontJM
Date: 2004-09-22 02:30
I was experimenting with the pad just below the first ring, seeing what the tuning was like in comparison with the regular Bb/Eb fingering. I didn't like it- on my instrument, it was a bit out of tune and the tone was not as good. So.... I will not probably not be trying out this gadget...
Cheers!
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Author: Arnold the basset hornist
Date: 2004-09-22 07:40
By the way,
playing saxophone (long, long ago) I only used the BIS key with my left hand index finger - closing both the B hole and the BIS key simultaniously.
Arnold (the basset hornist)
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2004-09-22 11:40
Vermont JM,
But wait a minute, the Bis key fingering is only for a very rapid passage like C D Eb F G F Eb D C D Eb F G F Eb D C etc. or a trill or tremelo between certain notes. If you are looking for a perfectly in tune fingering and the tempo is slow, the Bis key is not the selection of choice.
But then, the 1 and 1 (or I and 2 if the key is appropriate) is not a very good fingering for intonation but wonderful for use with certain passages. as with all alternate fingerings, they have their own unique uses.
HRL
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2004-09-22 11:46
Sorry for the second post. Now removed but it was the same as the one above.
Post Edited (2004-09-22 11:47)
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Author: VermontJM
Date: 2004-09-22 12:50
Hank...
Completely understand. I just don't think it worth the time it would take to basically relearn passages like that. (I need all the time I have for what I am working on now... Besides, I am quite proficient with the sliver key.) I was also looking at where it would sit on my instrument and I am quite certain that it would get in the way. (I am certain that I would inadvertantly hit it, say... every other note...) It WOULD be helpful with certain tremelos... hmm.. conflict. Darn.
Now, oddly enough, my 1-1/1-2 fingering for Bb is a great note on my clarinet- I love using it because the tuning and tone are great. (Guess I lucked out- on my Bb, but not on my Eb or A)
At first I thought that the Bis Key was a pretty cool idea, I guess, but after hearing from other people and taking a look at my own playing and my instrument, I don't believe it would make any huge improvement for me.
I think an alternate G#/C# key would be cool. Along with an auxillary Eb/Ab (which I don't have but rather wish I did.) Doesn't oboe have two G# keys? These two extras would pretty much eliminate all glides/slides and weird fingerings, yes?
Have a great day!
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Author: JMcAulay
Date: 2004-09-22 17:55
Hank: Certainly, the use of L1 plus L2 on the pad cup has a somewhat limited application, but so do scores of other fingerings that come in handy now and then.
I use it more often than "1 & 1," but I am likely in a small minority. It's great for trilling up from Eb or Bb, though.
Due to the Clarinet's design in that area, the size and location of the wee hole under that pad drives the intonation of B and E when the pad is open. So that hole is not primarily designed to produce Eb or Bb when it's closed (and nothing below it is fingered). Thus, the actual intonation of Eb and Bb using L1 plus L2 on the pad cup will work much worse on some Clarinets than it does on others.
Regards,
John
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2004-09-22 19:00
Hi John,
Yes, it seems to be a compromise in more fingerings then we might like to acknowledge. Your trill example is a fine use of an alternate (but you could really "get way out there" and hold the clarinet between your knees and use a RH finger on the pad cup). As I recall, Marcellus used to do something like that although not that exact note.
HRL
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Author: Tom J.
Date: 2004-09-22 19:12
The bis key one cannot assail
For other Bb keys can fail
It's perfect for Daphnis
Or Neilsen exactness
And it's great for cleaning your nails
OK, while I'm on a roll . . .
A key used mainly by those
With fewer fingers than toes
If not well in reach
Then digits must breach
As if one were picking one's nose
Tom J.
Post Edited (2004-09-22 20:23)
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Author: jim S.
Date: 2004-09-23 02:46
Rosario Mazzeo mentions the bis key on P. 127 of "The Clarinet".
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Author: soybean
Date: 2011-04-29 22:10
quote:"Rosario Mazzeo mentions the bis key on P. 127 of "The Clarinet".
Out of curiosity, what does he say? (Yes, i realize this is an old thread, but those limericks are so much fun to read.)
~Dan
(Leblanc Bliss, Buffet R13 key of A, Yamaha 250 Bb)
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Author: 2cekce ★2017
Date: 2011-04-30 00:59
I had a yamaha custom model that had that bis key, I found that it was not useful in many applications and would take some getting used to on
clarinet, tho easier on the sax. I hardly ever used it on sax and didnt use
it on my clarinet at all.
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Author: William
Date: 2011-04-30 15:13
An update on my earlier postings--I will be performing "Peter & the Wolf" in a couple of weeks and there is one rather frantic sequence of Eb arpeggiated sixteenth notes ending on some Cb quarters that must be played at "warp speed". Of course, this is playable with the trad side-key Bb--or with the third ring, if you are lucky to have an A clarinet with it. For me, I am using the Runyon add-on bis key which simply attaches to the Bb/Eb cup arm and can be held down with the first finger alone--just like on my saxophones. I bent it so as not to interfer when I do not want to play Bb and when the concert is over, I will remove it with no lasting damage to my Buffet A.
The drawback to this bis key Bb/Eb is that it is extremly sharp and not suitable for "everyday" use. So, at least for my R13s, permanently adding the key just isn't worth it. However, for "Peter"--quick notes where momentary intonation problems are not noticable--the Runyon add-on bis key works for me.
As for my earlier posting from 2004, I am still waiting to hear from someone "down under" regarding my other bis key.
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Author: salzo
Date: 2011-04-30 15:35
"bis key?"- I always called the left hand Bb/Eb key the "bis" key- what is the actual name for it?
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Author: William
Date: 2011-04-30 20:35
Two names are often used: sliver key or banana key. Since I only use that key in chromatic passages, I call it the "chromatic key"--I know, DAH. Anyhow, a real "bis" key is an extra key most commonly found on saxophones between the first and second left-hand finger buttons. It is there to enable playing Bb/Eb with just the first l-h finger. Most clarinets do not have one, although I've seen a couple of bass clarinets customized by Charlie Bay that have one added--his were dimes, as I recall....lol.
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