 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Meri
Date: 2004-09-13 21:27
How many of you have discovered that a few student's parents purchase an inferior-quality instrument, which seem to have proliferated in the past 3-5 years or so? Especially when you know they could have purchased a used instrument of a reputable make for about the same price they paid for the inferior-quality one, and sometimes get a mid-grade instrument for a comparable price. Of course, there's also the very poor resale value, and then reputable instrument repairers not fixing them. It's one thing if they listen to you, but what if they don't, and keep insisting that "it will be fine for now"? Some of them seem to refuse to read the articles about this and and past discussion forums?
How do you "educate" such people on why those cheap instruments should not be bought? I find that the tone quality and intonation of those inferior makes really poor (how about being 30 cents sharp when the barrel joint of is pulled out about 5 mm?) and the keywork is often rather rough? I've heard stories from students of those instruments falling apart within three or four months!
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Author: its the Lencho
Date: 2004-09-14 00:34
Interesting point you bring up.
Although the prices between perhaps a used intermediate Selmer and an inferior instrument (I'm thinking all those monstrosities they sell at wholesale warehouses like Costco) may be similar, the parents will most likely be drawn to the "new" factor. The mere fact that it is new and virgin gives it an advantage over its Selmer competitor in the eyes of the inexperienced shopper.
My suggestion would be to talk about the instrument in terms of investment. A cheap and inferior clarinet is best the day you first set mouth to it, and it only does downhill from there. On the other hand, a half-decent clarinet, even if used, can actually get better over time. (Assuming its properly maintained)
So in the end, which is the more proper investment?
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Author: GBK
Date: 2004-09-14 01:17
Meri said:
> How do you "educate" such people on why
> those cheap instruments should not be bought?
We've had a number of threads about this very topic. Print up copies of some of them and distribute to any parents who are considering purchasing these CSO's (clarinet shaped objects). Let them read first hand what teachers and professionals in the field are saying.
Ask your local tech for a list of the instruments which he will not service (or again, look in our archives for these brands) and keep a list to give to parents.
You can also keep a "recommended" list of beginner instruments, if parents need help in choosing...GBK
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Author: moderhett
Date: 2004-09-14 02:36
At the music store I go to, they have an example 'CSO' and a disclaimer about being wary of them. It warms my heart everytime I see it. More music stores should take it upon themselves to be so kind.
I think if parents keep insisting that the clarinet is 'good enough' for their child despite your reasoning, they're entitled to their opinion but should be reminded who the expert is. At that point though, after the clarinet is bought, I'd consider it a moot point since I know my parents wouldn't fork over another 300 bucks for a clarinet after having bought one already.
Post Edited (2004-09-14 02:39)
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Author: ken
Date: 2004-09-14 03:05
My 16 y/o launched and continues to operate his own community Dog Walking Service before and after school. With the extra $350.00 he contributed to his own cause I was able to afford to buy him a higher quality Bach Strat Bb Trumpet. However, as for the CSOs, he has a distinct advantage as Dad was a working musician for 24 years. But if he ever had the audacity to bring home one of those FirstAct specials (he's been musically trained and knows better) it would be instantly transformed into a CFO (clarinet flying object) and harpooned into the nearest wall. v/r Ken
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Author: Brenda
Date: 2004-09-14 03:45
How to educate the parents? The same way you educate your kids. You tell them, explain to them, and then let them stick their finger in the electric plug, and then sympathize with them. What else can you do? At least they'll know that you cared enough to try to warn them. They'll listen to you next time. (Keep in mind, fellows, that the electricity here isn't enough to seriously harm someone whereas in other countries it is.)
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Author: Matt Locker
Date: 2004-09-14 12:22
Meri:
I think the detail to remember is that many people are suspicious of used cars, instruments, ..... The American way is to buy new because it's always better! Not only that, when you buy new you should be getting a known product.
When you buy used, it's buyer beware. If the parent is not a musician - which I suspect a lot of your student's parents are - how do they know what's good in a used instrument. Remember, these are new students who are not able to evaluate the quality, or lack thereof, of an instrument. The parent can't evaluate the quality either but they know that most of the stuff they buy at WalMart, Costco, or whatever usually works pretty well so they expect the same of the musical instruments sold there. Why wouldn't they think that? Chances are good that the parents don't know where to go for guidance but would probably happily accept some if they received it. Unfortunately, the band director is just a person who they've never met yet so they don't know that they could give guidance on this question. Of course, they may not even know they need guidance. And if you want them to buy used, you'd better be ready to help them.
I think if there is a moral to this story, it's getting to the parents early. Do these kids need to come to the first class with their instruments in their hands already, or is there time allocated for them to get their instruments after class starts? If not, then the information that you are talking about should be in their hands long before the classes start. If you are a private teacher in a school rather than a director, talk to the director and see if there is a way to get this information out prior to the start of the year.
caveat: I'm not a music educator, just an amateur musician.
MOO,
Matt
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Author: BobD
Date: 2004-09-14 13:29
Many of the "greats" started out on inferior instruments because it was all their parents could afford. What you are really addressing is Wal-Mart's merchandising policy.....? But...if WalMart started selling decent instruments what would the other retailers and local music stores do?
.....and would any of their customers buy them?
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Author: hans
Date: 2004-09-14 13:32
Brenda,
Re: "the electricity here isn't enough to seriously harm someone whereas in other countries it is".... this is simply not true. The 110 volts in a wall plug can cause a serious burn and/or be fatal.
Hans
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Author: Dee
Date: 2004-09-14 14:41
hans wrote:
> Brenda,
> Re: "the electricity here isn't enough to seriously harm
> someone whereas in other countries it is".... this is simply
> not true. The 110 volts in a wall plug can cause a serious
> burn and/or be fatal.
> Hans
Actually it is the amperage available that is of more serious concern than the voltage. Most homes these days have 100 amp service or more. The table below is from the amateur radio study guide "Now You're Talking." Safety happens to be part of the exam. There is a phrase to help people remember where the real danger lies and it goes like this: "It's volts that jolts but mils that kills." But to address volts directly, 30 volts is usually considered the minimum voltage that is dangerous to humans.
However, the battery in your car is only 12 volts or so but it is a higher amperage (200 amps and often much higher) than your house current and is quite dangerous because of that. In either case though the amperage is high enough to be a serious danger and could kill you.
1 milliamp - just perceptable
5 milliamps - maximum harmless current
10-20 milliamps - Lower limit for sustained muscular contractions
30-50 milliamps - Pain
50 milliamps - Pain, possible fainting. The "can't let go current."
100-300 milliamps - Normal heart rhythm disrupted. Electrocution if sustained current.
6 amps - Sustained heart contraction. Burns if current density is high.
Post Edited (2004-09-14 14:51)
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Author: Henry
Date: 2004-09-14 14:52
I agree with Hans. It even goes further than that. I have been told in many safety courses that the North-American 110 Volts and 60 Hertz is, in retrospect, about the worst choice from a safety point of view. The European 220 Volts and 50 Hertz is considerably less lethal but still not to be toyed with!
Henry
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2004-09-14 14:55
Here's a twist: How about parents purchasing TOO nice a clarinet for their kid? I've had more than one parent ask to buy an advanced or professional-level wood clarinets for his/her beginner or first-year child, with reasons stated generally being (a) it makes more financial sense than renting or (b) they want something nicer than the typical plastic student instrument.
What do I tell them? They their child probably isn't old and responsible enough to properly care for a nice wood instrument? That a Vito or Ridenour might be a wiser choice? That they should rent from the local music store until they're fairly confident that the child will continue playing clarinet?
Or should I just smile and sell them a clarinet? I honestly don't know what's ethically 'correct' here --- looking to the BB for advice.
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Author: Don Poulsen
Date: 2004-09-14 14:58
I'm sure that somewhere there is a magazine article explaining how a low quality instrument or one that is not in good repair is impossible to play well if at all and how it also frustrates the student greatly when it is difficult or impossible to make a good sound. Make copies of the article and distribute it to parents. (If it doesn't exist, write it.) Then, add some information on what instruments to avoid and how to select a decent (new or used) instrument in good repair. Don't limit them to one or two models. And suggest the possibility of renting an instrument from a reputable music store. (Rented ones can be returned or repaired if they don't play well.)
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Author: glin
Date: 2004-09-14 15:27
David,
If the parents can afford and want the best instrument for their kids, why not sell them the "pro" horn? Hopefully, they will receive tutelage and proper instructions for clarinet care. With a good horn, they will have an advantage of fighting less for or struggling with intonation/tonal issues as they might with a student horn. If the kid sticks it out to high school, that's the time I'd advise on getting the plastic clarinet
Ethically, I don't think you're in any dilemma. You might want to present the trade-offs(buy cheap, more tendency to struggle and more tendency the need to upgrade), (buy expensive, less tendency to struggle, less tendency to upgrade) and let the buyer decide.
One of the Leblanc Educational Series brochures has good advice on what to look for in clarinets from student to pro. It's authored by Julie DeRoche and may be available at Leblanc's website (Leblanc Bell educational articles)
George
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Author: John O'Janpa
Date: 2004-09-14 15:46
David S,
I'd point out the fact that wooden clarinets require more care, and that there are some less expensive plastic ones that are usually adequate for the first few years, and hold up better when marching in rainstorms, but I wouldn't push the issue. Whatever you do, don't infer that little Brandon or Heather is irresponsible.
Most parents want the best they can afford for their children. Some parents drive a Mercedes when a Honda would do, and some kids will appreciate the fact that their parents placed enough confidence in them to get "the best" (whatever that is). I've known kids who guard their instruments with their lives, and the main danger to the instrument is wearing out the bore by swabbing it excessively. Granted these kids are the exception, but they do exist.
If you know the family finances well enough to see that it cause a finacial hardship, be a little firmer, but if they are living in a million dollar house,and driving a $60,000 car, don't worry about them buying a $2000 dollar clarinet.
PS. I still play the 1955 Selmer Signet Special that my Dad paid half a month's wages for, although this was after I had progressed through a borrowed C melody sax, then a rented Bundy clarinet. This happened before I got polio, my three brothers and sisters came along, and my Dad lost his job as a milkman when the dairy closed. It sure means a lot to me in retrospect.
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Author: Brenda Siewert
Date: 2004-09-14 15:53
Our local music store is run by former band directors, and as such their emphasis is more on the good quality education of the children who get the instruments. Each year they set up "packets" for parents to buy that have the recommended instrument, mouthpiece, music required by their individual directors, etc. The individual band directors are able to determine the instrument they recommend for their particular students, and they have set a pretty good standard. The store offers good programs to make is possible for parents to purchase these or rent them.
Parents don't have any idea what to get their children and they're pretty much at the mercy of unscrupulous sellers. The teachers need to get the word out to their future students and parents about finding good instruments and perhaps have some ideas about what to do for children who can't afford to purchase an instrument. I've talked to my friend who owns the music store and he has told me that there is a program in place that they don't openly advertise that will take care of kids who truly can't afford an instrument. But, sometimes parents just want to buy the cheapest thing they can get because they either don't care, or don't think their child will continue with music. Sadly, that is often the very thing that discourages a potential musician--a terrible instrument.
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2004-09-14 16:10
Thanks to all for the advice on my 'subtopic' question. ( it's more about the ability and willingness of the young players to manage the care and maintenance of a wood instrument, sometimes one having solid nickel-silver keywork that requires occasional polishing).
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Author: allencole
Date: 2004-09-14 16:12
I plagued with the same thing, but by time someone calls me looking for lessons, the inferior instrument purchase is a fait accompli.
A few things to know:
1 - I believe that it was First Act, who sued Mars Music because Mars employees criticized First Act instruments. I work for a chain of stores where the clerks are instructed not to criticize any brands.
2 - Parents aren't just drawn to the newness of First Act instruments. I believe that they have a warranty of 1-2 years. This seems extremely attractive until you find out there's not a repairman in your town.
3 - It doesn't help when outlets like The Woodwind/Brasswind actually sell the things.
My experience in private instruction is that parents usually get an instrument before they get a teacher. I know of band directors who have even tried to forbid Jupiter instruments, but they are subject to being bullied by both parents and vendors.
As for the other side of the coin, I've seen that too but far less often. But it's surprising who'll second-guess you when you try to warn someone. I had a student bring in an old R-13 which had not been swabbed with any regularity--it actually felt like dry, crumpled leaves in the bore.
I told her that this was not characteristic of a well-cared-for instrument. But she also knew a local college professor and took it to him. He cleaned it up, and pronounced it good enough.
Let me close with a foreshadowing of sorts: I can't even count the number of times that I've been chopped off at the knees while trying to improve the service I deliver, or warn someone of a decision with negative consequences. One thing that I learn over and over is that cost and convenience are paramount to the average person. Quality is seldom considered, because it doesn't make a visible difference until after the cheap/convenient solution goes up in smoke.
Allen Cole
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2004-09-14 16:47
Does anyone have a guess as to the 'continuation rate' of clarinet students? What percentage of children who start on clarinet are still playing one year, or five years later?
My bet is that the percentages are very low. If, to invent a number, 80% of kids who start clarinet will have quit before the year is out, why buy them a really nice instrument? Perhaps the parents can recoup a good percentage of the cost by reselling the horn, but maybe not. I'm going through a similar dilemma right now with my 8-year-old daughter who claims to want to play violin, and I'll be honest, I went the cheap route --- I purchased a generic, Chinese-made 1/4-size violin on eBay for an absurdly low cost, knowing full well that the instrument won't last, and probably won't hold string tension for more than fifteen minutes. But as fickle as kids are, I'm not about to spend hundreds on a decent instrument that she's very likely to get bored with and quit playing in weeks or months --- and being totally ignorant of string instruments as I am, I'm in exactly the same situation as most 'clarinet parents' who are not themselves players of the instrument.
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Author: msloss
Date: 2004-09-14 16:50
Purchasing inferior product because of good marketing or competitive price is not unique to band instruments. Walk around Circuit City and you will see aisles full of home theatre crap masquerading as good product. Wow, a whole surround sound system for $500! Produces sounds that only vaguely resemble what was put together in the recording studio, but obviously a lot of people are perfectly satisfied with the necessary compromises to hit a price point. Same holds for crappy band instruments.
Ultimately, so what? Those who care will come to the realization that it was a mistake, and the rest will continue in blissful (for those that don't have to listen) ignorance. Judging by the number of kids who come to their first lessons with me playing on chipped mouthpieces, bent ligatures, and year-old brown and chewed Rico #2 reeds, is a subpar instrument really that big a deal?
Creating a disposable instrument may not be such a bad idea. Kids who aren't taught to respect their instruments beat the hell out of them anyway. I've seen kids in marching bands drag their saxophones across parking lots by the neckstraps (OK -- bad example. Who cares.), sit on tubas and collapse the bells, twirl their clarinets, etc. ad nauseum. No way would I recommend a new student buy a used student instrument without somebody with a good eye scrutinizing the horn first. As with used cars, buyer beware.
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Author: Brenda Siewert
Date: 2004-09-14 18:34
Has anyone noticed how rare a used Ridenour clarinet is? Although they haven't been around for very long, there aren't any around to purchase used. They've been very successful in our area for student/intermediate players. I noticed he's got a new C clarinet out. His bass clarinets are supposed to be really good as well.
A lot of students who start out on clarinet move to other instruments in a year or so--like sax or alto, bass, or contra clarinets, oboe, etc. So, I believe in getting a student started on a HIGH QUALITY student clarinet--such as the Ridenour, Leblanc V40 (Vito), Buffet E-11 or others with a good reputation. Then, if the student wants to continue into high school--or shows a good aptitude for the instrument along with a willingness to practice and learn, it's time to bump them up into a higher quality instrument as both a reward and a better tool to accomplish their goals.
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2004-09-14 18:41
Brenda,
I like your approach --- sounds right to me!
I have seen a few used Ridenour TR-147s on eBay but you're right, they're not real common.
Also, don't forget the new Forte' student clarinet --- it has been very favorably reviewed and has some nice 'anti-damage' features.
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Author: saxlite
Date: 2004-09-14 23:47
Being a semi-professional woodwind player, I was quite familiar with the possible choices of instruments when my 9-year old son said he would like to take up the saxophone (like his Daddy). After a little thought, I sat him down and made a bargain with him- I said "good saxophones like mine are very expensive, and I don't know how long you will keep at this. But, I promise you that if you study well for one year, I will get you a better horn. And if you continue to progress well for a few more years, I will get you one like mine." He accepted the challenge, and I bought a clunker from a private party selling through the local want ads. My son was diligent and learned quickly. After a year passed, he reminded me, and I got him a good used Yanagasawa. And a few years later, I got him a like-new Selmer MK VII. He continued to progress, becoming sax section leader of his high school and later becoming lead alto at Cal Poly. I believe the best way to handle the cost/risk factor is to reward the student for his effort and achievement, but first make certain he/she understands how the game will be played. And make certain he/she knows how to care for the instrument so it can be resold when it's move-up time.
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Author: Brenda Siewert
Date: 2004-09-15 01:42
The resell value is important to take into consideration if you're going to want to step up as saxlite mentioned above. That's why the Buffet E-11, The Ridenour, possibly the Vito V40 and others like that are good first choices.
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Author: JMcAulay
Date: 2004-09-15 02:07
saxlite, how many parents do you think might offer such a sound program to a child? No way would I estimate even 25%. Sounds good to me, though.
By the way, there was an enormous amount of misunderstanding played into this thread earlier regarding electrical dangers. Plenty of people have left their earthly existence propelled by North Ameican standard 117-volt 60 Hz supply, as for that matter has Japanese standard 100-volt 60 Hz supply done the same. Of course, 220, 240, or 250 volt lines can kill anyone just as dead. And although an automobile storage battery may have quite high current capability, twelve volts is not enough voltage to push a lethal amount of current through the high resistance of even thoroughly damp skin. Always be careful.
Regards,
John
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Author: Dee
Date: 2004-09-15 12:06
JMcAulay wrote:
> [snip
> By the way, there was an enormous amount of misunderstanding
> played into this thread earlier regarding electrical dangers.
> Plenty of people have left their earthly existence propelled by
> North Ameican standard 117-volt 60 Hz supply, as for that
> matter has Japanese standard 100-volt 60 Hz supply done the
> same. Of course, 220, 240, or 250 volt lines can kill anyone
> just as dead. And although an automobile storage battery may
> have quite high current capability, twelve volts is not enough
> voltage to push a lethal amount of current through the high
> resistance of even thoroughly damp skin. Always be careful.
The quote below is from "Now You're Talking," 5th edition (also appears in earlier editions) published by the American Radio Relay League. This is a study guide for beginning amateur radio operators. It addresses safety (among other things) and candidates are tested on saftey issues (among other things).
"Autombile batteries are designed to provide very high current (as much as 200 A) for short periods when starting a car. This much current can kill you even at 12 volts."
Please quote YOUR source that says an automobile battery isn't dangerous.
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Author: OpusII
Date: 2004-09-15 12:38
Just reading this post..... but people, brenda is right....
Voltage or Hertz is not the killer in electricity.....the Ampere is the one that costs many lives.......
But isn't this a question about Parents purchasing inferior instruments? ![[hot]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/hot.gif)
Post Edited (2004-09-15 12:39)
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Author: Dee
Date: 2004-09-15 15:00
Off-topic or not, when there is an error in safety information on a public forum, this information needs corrected so that some reader doesn't get himself into a dangerous situation.
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Author: hans
Date: 2004-09-15 17:35
I'm not sure that "error in safety information" is the best way to describe this.
It's been 40+ years since I studied physics, but I vaguely recall that the amount of current received is a function of voltage and resistance (I=E/R, where I is current, E is voltage or electromotive force or something like that, and R is resistance). Therefore the low voltage (e.g., car battery) + high skin resistance combination would be a low risk scenario.
IMO it is less risky to connect the poles on a car battery using my body than to hold two knives and stick them into the two sides of an electrical wall outlet.
In fact, I have done the former with no ill effects but will not be reporting on the latter and recommend avoiding experimentation.
Hans
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Author: msloss
Date: 2004-09-15 17:39
Thank goodness this was all cleared up. I was going to give my kids a Die Hard battery and a toaster to play with in the bathtub. They do so love to play car and house.
![[whoa]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smilie10.gif)
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Author: ChrisC
Date: 2004-09-15 18:46
I won't even tell you guys what happened when I tried to stick my LeBlanc into an electric outlet to put a little more "juice" into my tone!
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Author: Dee
Date: 2004-09-15 19:15
While skin resistance is fairly high (1000 ohms wet, 500,000 ohms dry), the internal body resistance can be as low as 100 ohms, this leads to a current of 120 milliamps from a 12 volt battery if the integrity of the skin has been compromised. So don't go grabbing your car battery if you have cuts, scrapes, burns, etc on your hands.
As far as European electricity being safer, the 220 volts is perilously close to the approx 230+/- volt level, which is considered capable of puncturing the skin and thus is quite dangerous since the integrity of the skin can easily be compromised. That 220 volts in Europe could lead to 2.2 amps of current in the body if the skin has been compromised. This would be quite lethal. Even if the skin is intact but wet, you get 220 milliamps, which is still lethal. The corresponding numbers for the US 110 volts are 1.1 amps and 110 milliamps. Again these are within the lethal range although actually LOWER than the results with the European eletrical levels.
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Author: kal
Date: 2004-09-15 19:47
"I know of band directors who have even tried to forbid Jupiter instruments, but they are subject to being bullied by both parents and vendors."
I found this interesting, because all the top-seated flautists in my high school district played $2000 Jupiter flutes with gold headjoints. I didn't know they made other instruments, though.
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2004-09-15 20:23
re: Jupiter instruments --- I haven't tried their clarinets, but Jupiter saxophones are made in Taiwain, and are generally considered to be reasonably good student or intermediate-grade instruments, though not top-notch -- I tried a new Jupiter bari sax a few years ago and was far from impressed, but some folks say they've improved recently. I believe Jupiter's flutes were the first of their instrument lines to gain acceptability in the U.S among better players. Gordon (NZ) can speak much more authoritatively about Jupiters.
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Author: BobD
Date: 2004-09-15 21:24
To even suggest in jest that one should go ahead and let their child insert anything in an electric outlet is beyond belief. Go ahead and believe its amps or whatever you want but household current can be and is lethal every day.
And just the other day someone in the hurricane area was electrocuted by his generator. Automotive batteries can be dangerous to anyone wearing a wedding ring or wristwatch also.
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Author: saxlite
Date: 2004-09-15 22:13
Parents and teachers contemplating purchase of Jupiter ( or any other brand) instruments should check out whether the instrument is designed for A-440 hz or A-442 Hz. I discovered the hard way that they are intended for A-442; I callled their U.S. HQ in Austin, Tex and the chief tech rep told me "of course they are tuned to A-442- that's the International standard!" My complaint that this is the good 'ol U.S.A. did not gather much response. Caveat Emptor!!!!!!
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2004-09-15 22:16
saxlite wrote:
> tech rep told me "of
> course they are tuned to A-442- that's the International
> standard!"
And, of course, that tech rep was 100% wrong. The international standard is A=440. Local standards vary.
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Author: GBK
Date: 2004-09-15 22:37
saxlite said:
> Parents and teachers contemplating purchase of Jupiter
> ( or any other brand) instruments should check out
> whether the instrument is designed for A-440 hz
> or A-442 Hz
The Buffet E-11 is sold with a 64.5mm barrel and is pitched at A=442 ...GBK
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Author: jbutler ★2017
Date: 2004-09-15 22:53
I think these are here to stay. The electronic industry has had this problem for years. A lot of companies got out of the television business in the 80's because of the influx of disposable televisions. It has become cheaper to buy and new one than get the one repaired. The string instrument businesses have had to compete with this problem a lot longer than the band instrument business has. Anyone can buy a new $35 guitar, but thats just what you get. The cheap imports will not disappear.
It is very difficult for a parent who has the car note, the house note, oh, and you know the electricity and water don't come to the house for free, to not be attracted to the pricing of these instruments. Yep, there are going to be a lot more of them in the school programs for a long time.
One last thought......when was the last time you saw a Yugo being driven.
Those that are too cheap will not last.
jbutler
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Author: Meri
Date: 2004-09-20 23:05
The practice of purchasing an inferior instrument still cannot be justified. First, where I live, most kids have to be in band or orchestra for at least 2 or 3 years of their school careers. The inferior instruments become unusable well before then. Why should an entire ensemble’s tuning be affected by an instrument that cannot be brought down to the pitch level of the ensemble and plays poorly? Why would you take a risk on a potentially-talented young student playing a poor-quality instrument? You cannot predict which students will become totally devoted to the clarinet; therefore, don’t hold back their potential with a poor quality instrument. Yes, there are students who change instruments, but not as many as some people seem to think. Interesting, too, that I find that the students who want to switch instruments are almost always in schools with low-quality music programs. Even if the student does quit or change instruments, a significant portion of the purchase price can be recovered, as the school or private teacher may know someone else looking to purchase an instrument, but would be far more likely to help if it was a good-quality instrument.
The student I had referred to in my initial message on this topic whose dad purchased an inferior instrument for her birthday, he did not talk to me. Her mom tried to get him to talk to me before he purchased an instrument, but refused. I found out the A key on the instrument her dad purchased for her (made by Atlantis, probably another Chinese import) broke while in her school music class, which I found out at a church orchestra rehearsal last Saturday. Her dad just wasted about $300 CDN—almost twice that of a B-12 that I knew of that was in almost-perfect condition (a couple of pads needed to be replaced). So now they have to purchase another instrument, this time with me helping them. Guess some people do have to learn the hard way…
"There is a difference between being flat and sounding in tune, and being in tune but sounding flat. The first I can live with; the second I cannot."
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Author: johnsonfromwisconsin
Date: 2004-09-21 15:28
I'm under the impression that some instrument manufacturers (particularily flute makers) produce and design A=442 instruments for the everyday market to add brilliance and artificial projection above the rest of the A=440 instruments in an ensemble.
Getting noticed by playing out of tune is a silly notion.
-JfW
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Author: johnsonfromwisconsin
Date: 2004-09-21 15:35
On the Subject of Jupiter, I have handled and played a couple of their Artist series altos and tenor saxophones and came away very impressed. They seemed to play in tune with good response and keywork, the silver plated finish (clear laquered over, If I recall) was very consistant and attractive. I'm neither a great technician nor a great player, but they seemed to be on par with many other proffessional lines of horns.
One of the principal flautists in my community band plays a pro-line Jupiter flute.
-JfW
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2004-09-21 17:35
Hi,
A few years ago, a local repair tech with a performance degree in clarinet from Michigan State told me that the professional line Jupiter clarinets were very, very good. While I have never even seen one, much less play one, I thought it would be good to pass this on.
I wonder if Jupiter might be the next Yamaha in cheaper instruments? I have had some pretty outstanding Yamaha products in several areas including saxophones and wonder if Jupiter could possibly match Y's earlier days. Just a thought.
HRL
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Author: ginny
Date: 2004-09-21 18:08
I assume that it's a matter of education. My son started on a Vito, which he now uses for marching band.
How on earth would a non-musician parent know however? I was able to test drive the clarinet I got him and be sure it played reasonably well. After he showed he was seriously interested I got him a used R-13, he's pretty responsible. He sounds nearly as good on the Vito as on his used R-13.
Post Edited (2004-09-21 18:09)
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Author: supernova_khr
Date: 2004-09-21 21:47
When my son needed a clarinet, I gave him my old marching band one, which was also my father's old clarinet, and it worked fine until his first year of marching band, and then just gave out (I guess 55 years of continuous use was too much for it!)
However, when my daughter needed a violin, and later a cello, I had no idea what to look for, which is the position most of the parents of new music students are in. So, we rented, and then let her teachers tell us if something was good or not, and what to look for.
I presume you're referring to parents of relatively new students. In that case, I think teachers should encourage renting for at least a year. That way, assuming they rent from a reputable store, they should get a playable instrument that meets teacher expectations. Then, if the child decides to bag it after only a year, they haven't invested a huge amount into it.
If you're in a public school district, perhaps you could do something like ours does. It's a very large district, encompassing 1 city and 4 smaller towns that I can think of, and every year, at band/orchestra instrument acquisition time, they hold a fair at one of the local middle school auditoriums. All the stores in the area that sell/rent student instruments send a representative and also lots of stock. One can try instruments, and order/buy/rent right there. The parents get an education on the importance of decent instruments, and they get the ease of one stop comparison shopping.
The other thing the music teachers do is send home an instrument evaluation within the first few weeks of school, from elementary through middle school. If there's something wrong with the instrument, the parent gets a written description of the problems. This is another means of parent education. There are always kids that can't afford even a decent used instrument, and for those instances, the district has an inexpensive rental program of its own.
Cheers,
KayR
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Author: Dee
Date: 2004-09-21 22:51
A year's worth of rental will be more than enough to simply buy the instrument outright, especially if you buy online or use the online price to bargain down the local dealers.
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Author: Wayne Thompson
Date: 2004-09-22 07:10
What a crazy thread. Good discussion of inferior instruments, but the electricity bit got a little odd.
My two cents: Skip this if you don't want to read about safety issues.
(I can talk Ohm's law better than most, but I won't.)
In the right conditions, you can get killed with either 110 or 220 volts. The right conditions are wet skin and a current path through your chest (like standing on wet concrete and making contact with a live wire. Presumedly 220 V would kill you more often, but don't touch either one! But neither is exceptionally dangerous under day to day conditions; that's why they are sort of safe for use in our homes.
12 volts is not normally considered dangerous because of shock. The right conditions to harm you would be to get past your skin, like piercing yourself with sharp objects connected to both terminals of a auto battery. Possible, not likely.
Batteries and house wiring have lots of amps behind them, but it is the voltage that pushes the amps. Thus, it IS the voltage that is harmful here.
Now, a static electicity shock can be thousands of volts, but except for lightening, static doesn't usually have any substantial amount of current behind it, so you get shocked but not really harmed. This is the source of that old thing about current kills you, not voltage. I think the thing to remember is that voltage normally IS the thing to be scared of.
So most people do not take high voltage precautions with car batteries. However car batteries have other dangers, big ones. If that 12 volts finds a good path to ground, then indeed hundreds of amps can flow instantly. If that path is through a hand tool or wedding ring, that tool or ring can get instantly hot, hot enough to melt a small gold ring. Imagine what that can do to your hand! When you work on your car don't worry about shock, worry about metal paths to ground. Also, I guess car batteries can create hydrogen to explode and they have sulfuric acid to burn so be careful around them.
Back to shock hazards; I was taught in the Navy to not ever take an intentional shock, even if you think it's not dangerous. Simply don't touch sources of electricity. That's the bottom line.
Wayne Thompson
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2004-09-22 15:15
Wayne,
I'd submit that an inferior clarinet can inflict nearly as much damage to the player (and his audience) as an electrical shock........There, I've tied the two 'sub-threads' together!
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Author: Brenda
Date: 2004-09-22 17:14
Since this thread was resurrected - Many thanks to all you fellows who explained the technical end of things. As usual, sometimes the illustration is more of a distraction than a help. My husband always said that he wonders how our four kids ever survived their mother! (At present they're alive and well, with homes of their own.) We did have fun, though, with some rather unusual experiments along the way.
Anyway, the point was, that no matter what you tell some people, children or adults, sometimes they'll go ahead and do whatever foolish thing they get into their heads. Once you've sent a clear warning, there's not much more you can do. Just don't harp on the "I told you so", and let the experience teach them to listen to you next time.
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Author: GEM
Date: 2004-09-27 18:37
Frankly, I'm thankful that some people buy very nice, expensive instuments for kids who give them up too easily - it makes for a great bargain for the rest of us! When my son decided he wanted to play flute, I looked around and couldn't find what I considered something decent for him for less than $800. But then I found an ad from a guy who'd bought a VERY nice Gemeinhardt for his daughter, who only played for ONE MONTH then stuck the thing in a closet for a few years. I got it for $100. However, I agree with the folks who said to buy a quality beginner's instrument, then upgrade if the kid shows talent, interest, and progress. Another son of mine is playing my old La Marque that has to be at least 40 years old. Even though it's a beginner's horn, it was well made and well cared for, so it should do him well until we see how far he wants to go.
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