 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: mystery science dieter
Date: 2004-09-10 18:16
Ok, so I heard an album of his called "Stranger on the Shore."
It is basically him and a string section playing lots of slow ballads.
He basically plays the melody, then plays it again with minimal adjustments. It isn't really even improvising, it could have been written out from what I could tell.
His sound is strange but fine. Sorta pretty in a certain way. Definately not an 'orchestral' sound. I guess that bothers some people.
So what's the big deal about Acker Bilk? I mean, I didn't hear anything to get upset over. If you like Lawrence Welk and think of that as jazz, you probably will like it ok.
It ain't Benny, Artie, Buddy, etc. though.
Post Edited (2004-09-10 18:17)
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2004-09-10 18:21
The main problem is not Acker Bilk's playing being mediocre, per se, it's that he became rich and famous for it --- whilst so many FAR superior clarinettists were/are unknown, poor, or both. Analogous to Kenny (%$*%*#@#!) G's sax playing. I'd surmise that the reactions to Bilk from BB members are partly jealousy, partly outrage at the unfairness of the universe, and partly disgust with the low level of popular taste in music.
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2004-09-10 18:36
But GBK, if we were to quit being musical snobs, over 82% of the posts to the BB would disappear overnight! What fun would that be?
I'll stick with my disdain for Kenny (%$*%*#@#!) G, regardless.
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Author: GBK
Date: 2004-09-10 18:49
David Spiegelthal wrote:
> But GBK, if we were to quit being musical snobs, over 82% of
> the posts to the BB would disappear overnight!
Probably closer to 98% ![[wink]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smilie3.gif) ...GBK
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Author: Terry Stibal
Date: 2004-09-10 20:27
There's nothing wrong with Kenny G (other than the off center mouthpiece placement; what's with that?), as far as he goes. Not my particular taste in "jazz", but then again it's hard to get three people to agree on what constitutes "good jazz" in the first place.
Successful music is what people want to hear, not what we want to play, and those who denigrate the tastes of the "public" are doomed to unhappiness in the world of playing for money.
Bob (insert unpronounceable MittleEuropean last name here) has about three columns a year on this topic in the American Musician newsletter of the AFM. This month, he published several excerpts from letters that lament the poor market for "traditional" musical groups. Bob correctly answers that if you don't play what people want to hear, you ain't gonna get paid for it, and offers several target markets for the "traditional" music that are still out there. But, old habits die hard.
I have no end of trouble convincing my "pure" contractors that, no matter how good an Artie Shaw number may sound, it is immaterial when the folks that hire the group want to hear Love Shack or (shudder) something by Nora Jones.
Now and then, I throw in a few of the more melodic big band numbers in a four set job, but I'm not about to inflict Nightmare, West Side Suite or Clarinet A La King on hoi polloi. I like getting referrals for future jobs, and smothering typical twenty and thirty somethings in classic big band music is a one way ticket away from future business.
Keep in mind that "big band" music today is older (relatively speaking) than ragtime or "hot" was in the 1940's when "big bands" were pop music. Hell, people who look back at the Beatles with fondness are now in their sixties. What used to be "cutting edge" is now as much of an oldie as big band music was when I picked up my first union card in the 1960's. Professionals need to either adapt to this, or get out of the way.
We played a function last spring that was made up of "women of a certain age" and their spouses. Most were above fifty, and there were a few above seventy. I programmed this one with some trepidation (they weren't into swing era stuff specifically), but I had a complete backup set of "modern" (i.e., 1960-1970 era stuff, rock and R&B) on the hardstand, ready to go.
We tried Mustang Sally out at the start of the second set, and the group exploded. Dance floor packed with crowds of older women, often with other women, all dancing like crazy. Out goes the programmed second set and in comes the sub set and they danced for the next hour and a half. Complements right and left at the end, and a commitment for the next convention for a full four set engagement...all because the chemistry was there in that second set.
I have to admit that I got some angry looks from the guys who wanted to play the old standards included in that original second set. But, whose opinion is more important, the customer or the contractor? I can get decent sax players pretty easily, but finding a customer who is willing to shell out a couple of grand for my group is a lot harder. What would you do?
What are now to be old tastes used to be new ones. In turn, those old ones fade away (who remembers "hot" any more?) and are replaced as old tastes by the previously new ones, and on it goes. "Classic" rock and roll is a harder sell these days than it was in the Eighties, and eventually even R & B will fade. God help us when Nora Jones is considered to be an "oldie", but that day is coming.
It's not pleasant, but it is reality. Ignore reality at your peril...
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2004-09-10 20:53
Terry,
Everything you say is spot-on, from the standpoint of making a daily living as a performing musician. But music is also an art form, and just as people like to have an occasional taste of fine cuisine instead of McDonald's burgers, so should people get exposure to real jazz (however you may define it) instead of Kenny G (whose music is most assuredly NOT jazz). The problem is (and I have no doubt you've seen it) is that many people think Kenny G's sort of music IS jazz, PERIOD, and they are completely unaware of any other style of saxophone playing or jazz in general. There are people who think Acker Bilk's playing is the entire universe of clarinet in a nutshell.
Imagine if, because the food is 'accessible' and 'successful', all restaurants only made fast food? Why bother making French cuisine or sushi when these only appeal to a small fraction of the population? yet, many restaurants survive, even thrive, by NOT catering to the mass market and instead offering something more 'elitist' (I think the marketeers call it 'niche-marketing').
I'm not saying you should try to play "Giant Steps" at a wedding.....but it's not necessary to capitulate entirely (as some bands have, yours excluded I'm sure) and play nothing but "Mustang Sally", "Celebration", and "Love Shack". Easy for me to say since I don't have to make money at music any more --- but still it should be considered a musician's cultural responsibility to occasionally extend the borders of the public's exposure to musical genres and styles --- ultimately it helps everyone (and hopefully the band won't get fired for trying!).
I'm not sure what point I'm trying to make here, if any --- I guess I just get infuriated with what I consider to be excessive attention paid to the Acker Bilks/Kenny Gs of the world, when there are guys like Joe Lovano out there to be heard........
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Author: ron b
Date: 2004-09-10 21:18
I've been unable so far, and I'm getting up in years now, to find any two people who agree on what Jazz, *any* form of 'jazz', is.
(Occasionally they can't even agree on what "is", is... 
Also, I've yet to find someone who can define for me what "Longhair" is.
Somewhat in accordance with what GBK has already stated, I've found no profit whatsoever in heated discussions on either topic.
- r![[cool]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/cool.gif) n b -
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Author: Bob A
Date: 2004-09-10 23:41
Gee Whiz guys, lighten up. If you're into "art forms" what ever happened to Spike Jones?
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Author: Kalakos
Date: 2004-09-11 01:11
Thanks GBK for the url where we could hear Acker Bilk. I like him too!!! He's not Bob Helm, but he does what he does really well. That is a compliment that anyone should like to hear. My two favorite "traditional jazz" clarinetists are Willie Humphrey and Bob Helm. I'm sure many on the list wouldn't like them, but I do. That's the neat thing about life. We are free to prefer whatever we want to.
Thanks again for the url!
Best,
Kalakos
Kalakos Music
http://www.TAdelphia.com
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Author: Ralph
Date: 2004-09-11 01:38
Let's give Mr. Acker Bilk his due for one thing - if you look at the sheet music that is still in publication he gets the credit for being the composer of this piece of music !! By the way I have a Pete Fountain CD that has a version of "Stranger on the Shore". As good as Mr. Fountain is, his version is just not as good as Mr. Acker Bilk's original recording.
Ralph
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Author: ken
Date: 2004-09-11 02:14
And nobody can sing "Tip Toe Through the Tulips" quite like Tiny Tim either...
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Author: Igloo Bob
Date: 2004-09-11 05:02
Regarding "what jazz is":
Jazz is Mingus. :p In seriousness, though, a Trombone friend of mine recently referred me to his music. I bought "The Essential Mingus Big Band" off of Amazon, along with two Paquito D'Rivera CDs (The Clarinetist, Tico Tico), and while I've always loved Paquito, a much larger amount of my time has been spent listening to Mingus.
I'm not fond of Acker's Bass Clarinet playing, either (mostly because of his tone), but I don't deny that he has talent. I always thought that a good tone and and stability in the upper ranges (especially upper clarion) were somehow mystically linked. His rather unimpressive (IMHO, of course) tone being used to hit the upper clarion w/staccato perfectly dispelled that myth from my mind forever.
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Author: donald
Date: 2004-09-11 09:12
hmmmm
funny that this came up- i heard Stranger on the shore (as the intro/outro music to an english comedy radio show) while driving back from the beach this afternoon....
the only thing that bugs me about Acker Bilk is that some of my students think it's a good idea to sound like him... it's not a good idea, because it will then become very difficult for them to play in tune, difficult for them to tongue the upper register, difficult for them to hit third register notes, and difficult for them to fit in with a concert band section.
a musical snob? well, a hell of a lot of people would look at my record/cd collection and wince.... Telemann, Mozart and those other "squares" sit next to Cibo Mato, Mouse on Mars, Sonic Youth, Peninsula Envy, Zap Mama and Nuijamiehet.
by the way, didn't Acker teach himself the clarinet in a WW2 prisoner of war camp? THATs cool!
donald
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Author: Squeeky
Date: 2004-09-11 14:02
HI all,
I'm a 59 year old Englishman who was brought up on Acker Bilk and his Paramount Jazz Band and I love his sound. What is it that if anyone has the temerity to say that a Brit has a bit of talent or sounds good then there's always an American who has to shoot him down in flames. We Brits love you Americans in general and embrace your music so why always knock us. You either play music that you like, or play what people want to hear. In Acker Bilks case he does both. Stranger on the shore was a number one hit in the American hit parade so it might not be everyones taste but it sure was for an awful lot of people. He wrote the song for his daughter in about half an hour and I wonder how many of you true musicians can do that and get it to number one. If he plays off key or even out of tune who cares as long as the sound that comes out is pleasing to the people he's playing too. He started off working in a tobacco factory for a very low wage so he certainly wasn't brought up with a silver spoon in his mouth. Acker is older now but still plays with his band and tours all over, including abroad, so he is still immensely popular. He just loves the clarinet and loves jazz. He certainly dosen't need the money.
I hope I haven't offended anyone that was not my intention, I also hope that I'm welcome to post on the BB in future.
Post Edited (2004-09-11 14:16)
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Author: BobD
Date: 2004-09-11 14:16
It's sort of amazing that we've got such good thoughful comments on this subject. First of all not all americans knock the brits. I still like Reginald Kell, Mr.Acker Bilk and Freddy Gardner. ....and most of the rock groups.....and Nick Drake and John Martyn...and...
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Author: hans
Date: 2004-09-11 15:15
Squeeky,
Thanks for that interesting information on "Stranger on the Shore". I have both the Acker Bilk and the Pete Fountain recordings and like them both.
Hans (for whom the marginal utility of money is a power function)
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Author: William
Date: 2004-09-11 15:19
Bilk--OK!!! NOW.........how about that Stolzman??? (oh no, not again)
Taste in music?? Simple--it's like Duke said, "If it sounds good, it is good".
Bottom line: you get to decide..................(case closed).
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Author: bill28099
Date: 2004-09-11 15:26
for a really nice biography check out
http://www.ackersmusicagency.co.uk/biography.htm
Personally, I think any musician who has been recording for 50 years, is 75 years old and is STILL WORKING should be admired. Specially one with half a finger and no front teeth. I rather like his music but as a clarinet player am highly appreciative of the fact that he has not flooded the market with how to play books like Simon Bellison. I do believe that self taught musicians bring something unique to an instrument as they have been unfettered by how things are supposed to be done. However, I must admit that the first time I heard "Stranger on the Shore" in my early 20's I thought it was a soprano sax being played.
So as I slip into the last quarter of my life I am happy to put Mr. Bilk up there in my list of admired musical senior citizens, Tony Bennett, Paul Renzi and Stanley Drucker.
Actually, when I was a kid I didn't like Tony Bennett but sure do now. By the way "Stranger" and "I Left my Heart" were both released in 1962, guess it was a good year for music.
A great teacher gives you answers to questions
you don't even know you should ask.
Post Edited (2004-09-11 17:05)
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2004-09-11 15:52
Squeeky wrote:
> What is it
> that if anyone has the temerity to say that a Brit has a bit of
> talent or sounds good then there's always an American who has
> to shoot him down in flames.
I still fail to understand why people jump to conclusions so easily. I don't like Acker Bilk at all (and didn't like Acker since I first heard him, which was probably 20 years before I started playing clarinet, and 15 years before I started listening to clarinet music per se). It has nothing to do with national character, whatever that means. It has everything to do with my personal taste. You might not like some of the things I really enjoy (I happen to think Linda Ronstadt & the Nelson Riddle Orchestra did a wonderful set of "torch songs" in their collaboration on "What's New?", but there are a whole bunch of people who think it's pure pap. I don't care what they think, though I'll listen to their arguments ...)
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Author: morgan
Date: 2004-09-11 16:36
This brings an interesting question to my mind. Is it possible to play in both a "traditional" clarinet style and in a "popular" style? Do I need two clarinets/reeds/mouthpieces to do this? I'm all for pleasing the audience if possible, whether it's an audience interested in classical music or popular music.
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Author: ron b
Date: 2004-09-11 20:56
Speaking only for m'self, Morgan, I've never ever found any need whatsoever to change equipment (instrument, reed, mouthpiece) to play a different "style". If that were the case, the instrument dictating what we sound like, we might rationalize the need of a different horn for every tune we play by a different composer
- ron b -
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Author: Katrina
Date: 2004-09-13 02:44
Morgan:
For what it's worth, I play both Balkan folk music and classical music on the same set-up right now.
Ultimately I'd love to be playing the Balkan stuff on a 5JB with a #2 Rico and get the same sound as Ivo Papazov, BUT I still need to sound "legit" for my students and for my classical trio. And my classical sound would be improved by a harder reed and more closed mp. (Not that a Borbeck 11 is the most open, but...)
So, it is possible to get "close enough" with one or the other for most of the general public. But my Bulgarian musician friend says, "Well, you sound ok." And I'm sure if I tried to audition in November for the Minnesota Orchestra, they'd think I sounded like a BRIGHT lightbulb! But for my audiences it works. And for my students it actually works too, somehow...none of them sounds as bright as I do sometimes.
And I do use vibrato in both the Balkan stuff and in the Kreisler stuff my trio does...
Katrina
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Author: ken
Date: 2004-09-15 03:58
Squeeky wrote: "He wrote the song for his daughter in about half an hour and I wonder how many of you true musicians can do that and get it to number one."
--reminds me of a pick-up gig I did with Chuck Mangione a few years back. Before we played his signature tune, "Feels So Good" Chuck thanked the audience for making the song a hit and for "putting his two daughters through college". After the gigs, I got Chuck's autographed picture and bought my wife a winter coat with the gig money .... that's MY version of a number one hit.
The last time I was in London (1996), I passed by an old guy in his 70s in front of Royal Albert Hall busking clarinet into a mic w/guitar amp. He was sitting on a old wooden milk crate against a light pole doing his music minus one thang. The compulsory case was open and he had a short stack of solo CDs he was selling. I was with a group of non-musicians who weren't in the mood to stop so I only caught a glimpse, neither a name but he definitely had a striking resemblance to Acker Bilk. Never know, it might have been him. He WAS playing a little off key but nobody minded, loved to play and likely didn't need the money....if it smells it sells.
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2004-09-15 14:05
Donald wrote "...by the way, didn't Acker teach himself the clarinet in a WW2 prisoner of war camp? THATs cool!"
That's what I was told when I was a kid, and I thought it was cool too, but I can't find reference to it in the web, so perhaps it was a local NZ fabrication to inspire students.
For biography:
http://www.ackersmusicagency.co.uk/biography.htm
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