 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Aussie Nick
Date: 2004-09-06 12:56
Ok... I know exacly what you're all going to think. I'm a twat, and yes I know it. Here's my problem. As you may know, I got a pair of new RC prestiges from the Buffet Factory in France recently. I've spent a couple of hundred dollars on both of them, trying different barrels and getting stuff done to get them to play exactly how I want them. The A has come up pretty good, but the Bb I'm sorry to say I have completely misjudged and is a heap of rubbish. The 12ths on it are shocking and I'm having a very difficult time getting it to play in tune. It also has some strange buzz sounds. I've emailed the Buffet public relations officer (the guy who showed me round etc) and told him I'm completely unsatisfied and asked about the possiblity of swapping the instrument over (since it is only 4-5weeks old). I said that if need be I'd pay a little extra to do a trade..new one for this one.
I'm expecting a big fat NO in responce, but what do you guys think my chances are. Or else what do you think my options are? Thanks in advance
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Author: hans
Date: 2004-09-06 13:55
Nick,
You have my sympathy. You must be extremely disappointed.
In the worst case i.e. if Buffet won't trade it for another, I would send it to the most knowledgeable and experienced person I could think of in my part of the world, after discussing the problem with him or her.
In your case, I'm guessing that that would be Gordon in New Zealand.
Regards,
Hans
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Author: David Peacham
Date: 2004-09-06 15:52
Seems to me that your issue is not with Buffet, but in the:
"getting stuff done to get them to play exactly how I want them"
What stuff? If the instrument was OK when you got it from Buffet, and has deteriorated, you should have a chat with the guy who did the "stuff".
That's what Buffet will say, too, I suspect.
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If there are so many people on this board unwilling or unable to have a civil and balanced discussion about important issues, then I shan't bother to post here any more.
To the great relief of many of you, no doubt.
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Author: Ben
Date: 2004-09-06 19:18
It seems there are two possibilities...
1) The instrument has always had these 'problems', and you didn't notice them at first.
2) The instrument was fine in Paris, and somewhow changed in the interim.
If you tested the clarinet throughoughly and seemed great in Paris, we can probably emliminate 1. When a clarinet is being broken in, many things can change....the wood, pads, etc. So, even a small swelling of the bore, or pad problem could change tunning a lot.
If the instrument has no other serious problems, and you are happy with the evenness and color of sound, I would just send it to the best repair person you know of for a complete overview. A brand new clarinet should need this anyhow before it can play at its best. If the instrument comes back and still has some problem you cannot live with, I'd sell it on Ebay. Perhaps whoever buys it will love the instrument, and you can use the money to find a clarinet you are happier with.
Although no clarinet will ever be 'perfect', there are definately clarinets which are not at a professional level, and never will be.
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Author: Aussie Nick
Date: 2004-09-07 00:03
I've never used ebay... is it safe to sell on? I'm still waiting on a reply from Buffet. If he doesn;t reply in the next day or so I'll give him a call.
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Author: msloss
Date: 2004-09-07 03:06
AN,
Assuming pitch, timbre, etc. were all thoroughly checked in Paris, first thing you need to do is undo everything you have done. You are changing the cabinets and carpet in a brand new home. You need to get to know the instrument before changing barrels, bells or other components, and certainly before you let a tech start carving on it. What is the essential nature of the instrument? Once you can answer that, then start making changes. The essence of what you liked in Paris about the horn is probably still there.
And David is right -- if you had anything done to the instrument (changed pads, undercutting, etc.), they are very unlikely to swap it out.
Best of luck with it.
MDS
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Author: diz
Date: 2004-09-07 04:16
Nick, my sympathies, mate.
Without music, the world would be grey, very grey.
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Author: Aussie Nick
Date: 2004-09-07 04:29
msloss - the intonation checks they did in Paris comprised of me playing a chromatic scale with their big tuning machine. I don't think it is in the same context as playing in normal circumstances. The work I have had done mainly consists of the using of blue tac in tone holes to bring some of the extreme sharp notes down. The register vent tube has been swapped with that of a Festival, and can be swapped back to the original tube in a second. Other than this nothing permanent has been done and if they won't swap it I'll be selling it on ebay and keeping my old fesitval Bb for the time being.
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Author: David Peacham
Date: 2004-09-07 11:29
Nick
Look, I'm a complete amateur and ignoramus, so ignore every word of this post if you want. I speak only as the owner of a modicum of common sense.
As I understand it, you selected a Bb that played well in Paris. You then gave it to an Aussie tech who changed the register tube (why?) and put bits of bluetac in various holes "to bring some of the extreme sharp notes down".
If it had extreme sharp notes, why did you buy it? Or did the notes only go sharp after you changed the register tube?
Let's suppose, despite all appearances, the tech did a good job, in the sense that the instrument played better when it left his workshop than when it entered it. You then bring the instrument home and start playing it. You swab it, I guess. You probably dry under the pads, too. How long is the bluetac going to stay in place? What is going to happen if a bit of bluetac gets on a pad? I can imagine that bluetac might be a good way of experimenting with tonehole changes in an easily reversible way, but I can't for the life of me believe that it is stable under extended use.
Seems to me you need to go and see this tech. Presumably he will agree that the instrument is a mess, and want to rescue his reputation. If he has no better suggestions to make, then order him to replace the correct register tube, remove the bluetac, and refund his fee. If the instrument is still not right, then maybe *then* you should talk to Buffet.
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If there are so many people on this board unwilling or unable to have a civil and balanced discussion about important issues, then I shan't bother to post here any more.
To the great relief of many of you, no doubt.
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Author: Aussie Nick
Date: 2004-09-07 12:01
I regard myself as having good relative pitch, but certainly not perfect pitch. I didn't pick up on every sharp/flat note whilst at the factory. I played the chromatic scales for the Buffet tech guy and he said the instrument was playing well in tune. Since getting back and having time to myself with it, I discover the 12ths are not at all good, the upper clarion notes are really quite sharp, the throat notes are all over the place, the middle (clarion) C and D are really quite difficult to bring down in pitch, and it has a funny buzz on the clarion G, which makes the instrument feel uneven in tone and resistance. The blue-tac was purely for experimental purposes, and if it worked we would eventually do something more permanent. The register vent tube was swapped also as an experiment to see if it had an affect on the 12ths. I still have the original tube and can have it put back in.
I played my old Bb instrument (festival) in orchestra rehearsal today for the magic flute, and what a difference. I forgot just how even the intonation is on it. I have to pull out more than on the new Prestige as the Festival is a generally sharper instrument, but at least it is evenly sharp.
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Author: LeWhite
Date: 2004-09-07 14:12
I had the buzzing on my new Leblanc Bb last year, on low G and in some spots in the upper register. I was told that everything just needed to 'settle' and it definitely has.
You're actually a lot luckier than me even though you may not realise it. I am just a little unhappy with my Concerto A, but I can't simply sell it and buy another without a great deal of effort; not only in finding a buyer, but also locating a source of new stock. What I'm saying is, don't feel too discouraged as almost any Buffet will sell very well, especially (this is just an assumption) if you open your Ebay auction to international orders, due to currency conversions countries like the US will essentially be getting a bargain!
Just because it's not good enough to you, doesn't mean (no offence anyone) that it won't be the best instrument for a rich high school kid who will probably quit music once he/she finishes high school. Just a thought, just an assumption as this was the case when I was selling my old Buffet.
__________________
Don't hate me because I play Leblanc! ![[down]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smiley23.gif) Buffet
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Author: graham
Date: 2004-09-08 08:54
So, do we infer that the Buffet rep was looking at the tuning machine reading, but you were not? You don't need perfect pitch to read a tuning machine. The twelfths are bad now with the replacement speaker tube. Are they worse than they were before? If so, it is pretty obvious what the cause is. If not, then either you are complaining about something that most players can live with, or it should have been obvious even to a cloth ears that it was out of tune at the factory.
I have a strong suspicion that the clarinet is, or has been, a better instrument than you are suggesting.
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Author: ned
Date: 2004-09-08 10:10
''Just because it's not good enough to you, doesn't mean (no offence anyone) that it won't be the best instrument for a rich high school kid who will probably quit music once he/she finishes high school.''
You are assuming a lot here regarding the intended buyer. I'm not offended, but how about the ''poor'' high school kid who might have saved for years to get a ''good'' horn only to be landed with a brummy instrument.
It's buyer beware as everyone knows and unloading a second rate instrument to anyone at all, via ebay, seems..........(hmmm).....not nice.
It's a different situation if the buyer comes to you in person and makes a decision based on what he/she sees and hears.
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Author: donald
Date: 2004-09-08 11:03
if the "new" register tube has a wider bore it will make the upper register sharper (especially left hand B and C).... if the "new" register tube has a smaller bore it may make the upper register slightly stuffy, and you may possibly be pushing the pitch up as a result of this. If the tube is even slightly dodgy seal-wise then this will have a detrimental effect on the tone/intonation. Even the most minute amount of air escaping can have some influence.
Hans- Australia has 50 times as many proffessional grade clarinet players as NZ does, and there are some really good repair people there... NZ really only has two or three people who know what they are doing. Gordon does good work, but if i lived in Aussie i'd find out who Frank Celata, Floyd Williams and Paul Green (to name but a few) go to for their repairs.....
David Peacham- you make some good points, one thing to bear in mind though.... if you're going to mess around with tuning and need to close down some holes, then blue tack is actually quite a good thing to start with. It's easy to apply, and easy to REMOVE. Thus, you can try things out, and if it works out (over, say, a few weeks) then you can take it out and replace it with a more permanent material (nail polish etc). If you don't experience an improvement, nothing lost- just take it out. i know more than one proffessional player with blue tack still in his/her clarinet, and they're not just Aussies.
Hey, read "from where i sit" by Jack Brymer, and read about what he did to his clarinet. Crazy
Meanwhile, Aussie Nick- i hope my story about changing register tube (previous posting) didn't encourage you to make a bad decision here.... Before you write this instrument off you must certainly go back to the register tube that came with the instrument and stick with it for a good while. The buzz on clarion G sounds like a pad skin (either the open pad on the bottom joint or any of the closed ones... including chromatic F#/B)
Throat note tuning is very sensitive to Barrel/Mouthpiece combinations, but also to tension in your throat.... this means of course that YOU may be playing out of tune... but also if some holes have been filled in (to flatten certain notes) those notes will now be slightly more resistant- encouraging a bit more tension in your tone production and pushing the pitch higher.
Of course, another possibility is that the instrument has reacted badly to the change in climate etc- look down the bore of the instrument, are the joints lining up well, or are they off centre (yes, this makes a difference, and can change if the joints shrink/swell etc).
donald
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Author: Aussie Nick
Date: 2004-09-08 12:06
Graham - it was a very large machine and I had no idea how to read it. I played the scales, the Buffet tech took the instrument off me and made adjustments, and told me to play it again so I did. I was in a room with 2 other clarinet players and could barely get my own tuner to register what I was playing because of all the noise around me. As I confessed initially, it is completely my own fault for deciding on this instrument. The day I was at the factory was at the end of a 4 week tour of Europe with the youth symphony, and I will admit that after 4 weeks without much personal practice I wasn't playing my best.
The register vent tube that was put in (out of a festival) seemed to make an approvement to the instrument, not vice versa. I have had my teacher and another professional player try the instrument and neither were impressed with the number of quirks. A local music store phoned me and told me to come and try 2 rc prestiges they had in stock. I have tried both in orchestra and 1 of them is a very nice instrument. They are getting another 2 in from Sydney next week for me to try so I will see what they are like, but I could quite easily contine playing on the 1 I have borrowed right now. Maybe Graham is right that it is a better instrument than I am making out, and although I made a mistake and decided on an instrument I thought was good but infact isn't (to me at least) I do actually have a pretty fair idea of what a good clarinet plays like and I know what is acceptable in regards to what "most players can live with."
Donald - I've heard a lot about someone in Adelaide named Tony Ward. At the moment I use people that Floyd Williams and Paul Dean use - they are Geoff Secomb and John Stevenson.
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Author: Aussie Nick
Date: 2004-09-08 12:49
I just spoke to Philippe Leconte from the Buffet factory and he is going to send me an email with whatever their decision is, but he seemed to be saying it would be very difficult for him to take it back. My next hope is to see what else the local music store gets for me to try, and hopefully be able to do a trade (I'm sure that I will end up losing money on my 4 week old instrument though)
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Author: Brenda Siewert
Date: 2004-09-08 14:02
I almost hate to add anything to this discussion because there's so much information on this thread--but, it's been my experience with manufacturers that they will not take things back that have been "tweaked." It sounds like your instrument had quite a bit of tweaking done to it and it is no longer in original condition--thus voiding the Buffet warranty. They'll probably offer to have it looked at by one of their authorized dealers, but you won't be getting an exchange or money back.
This is from someone who has lost thousands of dollars on clarinet purchases--including two brand new Leblanc Symphanie VII clarinets and many Buffets.
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Author: Aussie Nick
Date: 2004-09-08 15:16
Does that even include if evertything that has been done can be put back? ie blue tac taken out and register vent tube replaced?
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Author: ken
Date: 2004-09-08 18:00
Yep, gobs of home-cooked remedies, to include my own. I dunno, my initial impression is there's already excessive tinkering. I think it's the b-flat that may now be too far from stock and buffet warranty disapproval.
Aussie Nick wrote: "The 12ths on it are shocking and I'm having a very difficult time getting it to play in tune. It also has some strange buzz sounds."
--Define shocking? This tuner-strobe IS calibrated correctly? A consistent 5 to 10 cents up or down, although not peg the meter is in the ballpark and approachable (and you're getting just the fundamental of the pitch); 20 to 40 cents I would call shocking. 5 to 10 cents sharp on the low end and altissimo is characteristic, and throat tones, although should be stable are the most invariable and unreliable for pitch center. The buzzing can be sudden climate-environmental changes or hardware related, i.e., loose screws, bent rod, out of adjustment springs, cups or pads. And by chance, were these instruments on an airplane lately and exposed to abnormally high altitudes?
Aussie Nick wrote: "The day I was at the factory was at the end of a 4 week tour of Europe with the youth symphony, and I will admit that after 4 weeks without much personal practice I wasn't playing my best."
--I disagree, while choosing a great horn is IMO another fundamental skill of the instrument it's not necessarily you. Yes, mental fatigue coupled with traveling and numerous time constraints, hotel quiet and privacy hours hinder practice routines (I've had to practice on park benches, back of the bus or equipment trucks at 2 a.m.) however, if you've been gigging every night or at least 5 times a week you've easily built-up NLT 2-4 hours of "performance chops". A typical instrument audition (even running 5-10 horns and 4-6 hours) with its heightened listening and concentration demands, and ritualistic starting and stopping shouldn't be an endurance issue.
Although it appears there's a legitimate problem of sorts, I have to wonder how much is "post purchase anxiety" (PPA for you military types). As experienced and confident a player, many struggle through an initial period of self-doubt even hyper-sensitive to every peep and creak; understandably, spending thousands of dollars on a horn and investment can have a frightening finality about it.
A couple things I would try: first, eliminating you haven't decided the horn(s) are dogs and dumping them, 1) Resolve to give the instruments a fair break-in period; I would play on them exclusively at least 2 months. 2) Return the B-flat to it's original physical, and acoustic condition and shelf all new barrels and toys. 3) Return to your Festival set-up and yes, if necessary your stock Festival barrel if you were using it. 4) Temporarily drop 1/2 strength on your reeds, RCs are notorious for and by bore design more focused and channeled .... it's simply an entirely different blow from your more open blowing Festival; muscle memory during break-in is a temporary factor as well. 5) If it was me, I wouldn't be breaking-in and sizing-up new horns in a youth symphony setting (or any large ensemble; at the most, piano, duet through WWQs). Of course, the instrument must be in tune with itself.
This situation might also serve as an example of when possible and the person knows you and how you play, permit your teacher or other advanced player acquaintance to make the "final" selection .... there's just flat out too much at stake, it's a musical instrument not a 3-piece suit. Hey, it just might be too early to dump these horns, they are after all, the choice(s) YOU made. v/r Ken
Post Edited (2004-09-08 18:08)
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Author: Brenda Siewert
Date: 2004-09-08 18:48
If it's possible to put them back to their original condition, I would do so as soon as you can and then try them again. Play them for at least a month in their original set-up condition before tweaking. You do need to be prepared for Buffet to turn down your request for exchange. If they were good enough for you to select them in the first place, perhaps you just haven't given them a good enough testing with real play. If you still don't like the Bb, cut your loss and sell it on eBay or here on the classifieds.
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