 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Bigno16
Date: 2004-09-06 02:20
(Focus on clarinet, more than general woodwinds)
My band director, a trumpet player, strongly believes that brass players, especially trumpet, are the most difficult instruments to play because of the physical demands.
Yet, I have come to realize what Robert Spring says, that we need to make people "aware that the physical aspects of performing the clarinet are every bit as demanding as those of the brass player."
I, myself, strongly belive that the clarinet demands A LOT of physical effort in order to play correctly.
Where do you stand on this issue and what reasons do you have to back it up?
Post Edited (2004-09-06 02:23)
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Author: hans
Date: 2004-09-06 02:49
Michael,
IMO the trumpet is more physically demanding: I know a trumpet player who broke a blood vessel inside his nose from pressure while playing a very high note. He nearly bled to death.
A sore thumb or tendinitis from clarinet playing is not even in the same order of magnitude.
I would be surprised if people chose their instruments based on this kind of information.
Regards,
Hans
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Author: Contra
Date: 2004-09-06 03:20
Until last Friday, I wouldn't have felt qualified to comment on this. Now that I've played a brass instrument, I can.
I found that brass instruments are more demanding on the face. Woodwinds are more demanding on the fingers. Now, to explain.
A person's lips will tire out much faster from a brass instrument than a woodwind unless they are used to it. A woodwind will tire their fingers before their lips. It's a bit of a tie in my book.
P.S. Baritones are fun, almost as much as bass and contra clarinet.
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Author: ohsuzan
Date: 2004-09-06 03:20
Well, I hope somebody else responds to this, because I am pretty prejudiced about this subject.
The clarinet section in our community band struggled all summer (and not for the first or only summer, I am told) with the demands of a director who is a very fine trumpeter, but can't grasp that clarinet fingerings, for one thing, are more complex than trumpet fingerings. This fact is obvious to me simply by virtue of the sheer number of possible combinations of fingers/holes/keys that a clarinetist has to know. That warp speed, syncopated piece in F#maj that we played frankly took a lot more work on the part of the clarinetists than it did for the trumpeters.
I also note that, in a concert band, clarinet parts are often transcriptions of violin parts. We played a lot of Leroy Anderson this summer, and while they were great pieces, and ultimately fun to play, there were a couple of them that went on for essentially four pages, mostly 16th and 32nd notes, with no more than an eighth rest anywhere in the score. Trumpeters and flutists would join in the melody for eight bars now and then, but the clarinets had it ALL THE TIME. I'm not sure a trumpeter could do that.
A trumpeter has to blow harder, I think, or focus the air more. So in terms of pounds per square inch, or whatever, I think the trumpeter has to work harder. But in terms of complexity of fingering and just plain endurance in real-life playing, the task of the clarinetist is more demanding.
YMMV.
Susan
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Author: GBK
Date: 2004-09-06 03:29
Trumpet is by far the most physically demanding of musical instruments and long term, inflicts the greatest stress.
Aside from the potential damage to the body caused by the pressure of blowing, injuries to the lip and surrounding facial muscles are quite common. Many of these injuries are permanent and career ending.
Lip pain, CLF (chronic lip fatigue), numbness, tingling, bruising, swollen lip tissue, weakness to one side of the mouth, spasms, inability to seal one corner of the embouchure, dryness of the mouth and/or lips, tooth displacement, and torn lip muscles (Satchmo's Syndrome) are only some of the physical ailments which plague trumpet players and cause constant worry.
Recent studies have also suggested eye problems, ear problems, head and abdominal pain caused by numerous years of high tessitura playing.
Also, (without earplugs or protective devices) let's not forget the potential for a temporary or permanent degree of hearing loss from one's own instrument and the other brass and percussionists seated nearby.
In second place (and probably a fairly distant second place) would be playing the oboe, based upon the intensity of the physical pressure from the air stream ...GBK
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Author: Bigno16
Date: 2004-09-06 04:10
GBK--my director actually said that he felt oboe was next in line after trumpet.
He is a sheer genius and a great guy and I do listen to him with the utmost respect and admiration, but I do take a little offense when he says things like all clarinet players have to do is take the reed and wet it and BOOM!, they're all set. He also says things like how easy it is for us with high notes because of the octave key. And how woodwinds are are sissy instruments (Joking around of course).
But isn't it true that we have more to worry about physically in terms of embouchure and all the things at once we have to do? Such as keeping the airstream absolutely focused, constant, and intense; all the muscles we have to have pulling in different directions which must remain completely motionless 90% of the time; our 24 or so keys as opposed to their 3 and our extreme technical passages which require much more physical effort--things like these are what I mean. Not just that the trumpet's design is more difficult.
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Author: GBK
Date: 2004-09-06 04:15
Bigno16 wrote:
> But isn't it true that we have more to worry about physically
> in terms of embouchure and all the things at once we have to
> do? Such as keeping ...
Compared to playing the trumpet?? Not even close ...GBK
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Author: psychotic lil clarinet girl (don't as
Date: 2004-09-06 05:15
Well I mean playing the trumpet isn't that hard... I tried one time for thirty minutes and got half the c scale out, or concert Bb... As far as the high notes go though, it's extremely hard to get them out...
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Author: morgan
Date: 2004-09-06 05:25
> I do take a little offense when he says things like all clarinet players have to do is take the reed and wet it and BOOM!, they're all set. He also says things like how easy it is for us with high notes because of the octave key. And how woodwinds are are sissy instruments (Joking around of course).
Well, based on everything I've read in this thread about the damage the trumpet does to one's body compared to the clarinet, I would think to myself that playing the clarinet is actually the smarter choice. But don't tell your director I said that.
I think the problem is that your director is insensitive to the woodwind players. There is nothing wrong with playing a clarinet instead of a trumpet. If I were you, I would, in private, say something to him along the lines of "I feel offended when you say bad things about woodwind instruments." If he's as brilliant as you say he is, he'd apologize and stop insulting the woodwinds, at least around you. If not, well, then he's a real <expletive deleted> and you need to either learn how to let his insults go through one ear and out the other or find another director.
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Author: JMcAulay
Date: 2004-09-06 06:30
"He is a sheer genius and a great guy and I do listen to him with the utmost respect and admiration...."
Excellent description of GBK.
Regards,
John
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2004-09-06 12:37
Hi,
Contra is right one; for a clarinet player to play a brass instrument, baritone is really a great choice. Read treble clef, bigger MPs, more relaxed embouchure, held close to the body, etc.
HRL
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Author: saxlite
Date: 2004-09-06 12:50
I think that I would inform the "insensitive" teacher that the entire clarinet section has decided to switch to playing trumpet. His reaction might be interesting.....
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Author: allencole
Date: 2004-09-06 15:45
>Bigno16 wrote:
>but I do take a little offense when he says things like all clarinet players >have to do is take the reed and wet it and BOOM!, they're all set. He also >says things like how easy it is for us with high notes because of the >octave key.
There is some degree of truth to this, and I can see it in my own private students when they start instruction after 2 or 3 years of playing. I am not sure that the average school band trumpet or french horn player can get away with the same levels of physical laziness which are available to clarinet players. Clarinet players may have to exert in order to play WELL, but it doesn't take much to get an initial sound.
I see a lot of clarinetists come into high school using #2 reeds and puffing their cheeks because they were rewarded for their weakness early on with pleasant sounds over a limited range. Many have never gone up beyond the second ledger line, and some haven't made it past the first. (and pitch is usually horrendous on the upward climb)
Brass players (and to a lesser degree, sax players) are easier to get past this stage, because they have been physically exerting themselves from their first note forward. Young clarinetists are often crippled by the ability to get some sound with no exertion, and by missing out on the heightened aggressiveness and attentiveness that physical exertion would have fostered in them--exacerbating the instrument's fingering issues.
Your band director might be wrong to say that all you have to do is wet the reed and BOOM!, but he may be gently accusing some in your section of doing little else.
This is not to denigrate the task of learning the clarinet. But I do think that a lot of young players get spoiled by its initial ease and then refuse to step up to the plate.
Allen Cole
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Author: clarinetsweetheart
Date: 2004-09-06 16:37
This is interesting, because my Band Director plays trumpet as well and she actually says that the clarinet is probably the most difficult of the instruments we have (though we lack oboes in their entirety).
I'd say it was a tie as well, though, physically and concerning playing in general. It's hard for us to learn to use the octave key, and so many things can go wrong with how we play if we don't listen to everything when we're first learning - such as the fact that up until last week I honestly had been playing by tonguing on the roof of my mouth for the past four years. I've gotten that straightened out thanks to the wonderful Dr. Spring, but I still don't know how I had it all wrong in the first place.
As for the physical side, trumpets might possibly beat us in that regard, but as some one else pointed out our figerings are a crapload more difficult than their's while their mouths get tired out easily. I don't know. I'll have to peak to our first chair trumpet and see what she thinks.
~*Charlotte*~
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Author: Bigno16
Date: 2004-09-06 18:50
Well, as a senior this year and everything, my trumpet friends take offense to when I tell them that they need to learn their parts. For instance, we have a weak trumpet section this year. But the reason they are weak is because they simply don't put the time in. I tell them "at least we [clarinets] can play our parts" and they start the whole thing about how a woodwind can't insult a brass player. They think that they are excused from learning their parts correctly because their instrument is more physically difficult to play.
Honestly, that's just nonsense and doesn't mean they can't learn their parts and be able to play simple things. They also play with no guts, feeling , or aggressiveness. I strongly feel they are just using this "more difficult" excuse for them not being prepared.
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Author: Camanda
Date: 2004-09-06 19:38
I think the trumpet is more complex than the clarinet as far as fingering goes. We have multiple fingerings for one note as opposed to multiple notes for one fingering. We need the next partial, we hit a button. Move the embouchure, wrong, put it back to where it was before. Trumpet players have a lot more to concentrate on to sound the correct partial. And let's not forget the French horn player, who will find even more notes using one fingering and one embouchure position. Or the trombone player, who must know where the slide goes exactly given the tuning at the time.
I've always told new clarinet players that the clarinet is probably the easiest instrument (woodwind, anyway) to learn to play, but definitely not the easiest to learn to play well -- be it just pure number of players or the little nuances of it, whatever. You'll grasp clarinet fundamentals quickly, but the little nuances take hard work. As a trumpet player, you learn the little nuances to begin with. Like I said, embouchure position. My trumpet-playing band director gets very mad at the trumpets who hit G instead of the C above it when we try to tune because that's just basic for a trumpet player.
I certainly make no case for the trumpet being a superior instrument, or trumpet players being superior musicians. Nothing of the sort! How absurd! I give all due respect to every musician, of course.
Amanda Cournoyer
URI Clarinet Ensemble, Bass Clarinet
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2004-09-06 19:52
Bigno16 wrote:
> I tell them "at least we [clarinets] can play our
> parts"
That's probably not the best way to approach the situation ...
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Author: Bigno16
Date: 2004-09-06 20:14
Mark Charette wrote:
> That's probably not the best way to approach the situation ...
It's not the best way to approach the situation.
But they are using the trumpet being more difficult physically as an excuse for them not being able to play correctly. They hold us back a lot of the time.
So what they're doing is saying "Oh, well I'm not able to learn my parts quickly because my instrument is harder than yours."
It's all how you prepare yourself, and knowing these trumpets myself, they do not put in enough time. The parts that I am talking about is nothing that they cannot handle.
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2004-09-06 20:39
Bigno16 wrote:
> Mark Charette wrote:
>
> > That's probably not the best way to approach the situation
> ...
>
> It's not the best way to approach the situation.
>
> But they are using the trumpet being more difficult physically
> as an excuse for them not being able to play correctly. They
> hold us back a lot of the time.
It's still not the best way ...
Perhaps just going right along with the harder pieces is what you need to do, and let your band director handle the brass problem.
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Author: msloss
Date: 2004-09-07 03:26
To develop GBK's point a little further, there is one aspect of being a reed player that is as much or more physically demanding than brass -- hearing. Between orchestras, wind bands and dance bands (...could someone get that darned phone...) my ears ring permanently. Being in the path of a trumpet going full tilt delivers enough concentrated sound energy to cook your eardrums in short order. I'd rather have the bloody lip.
[Use hearing protection! Www.hei.org ]
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Author: LeWhite
Date: 2004-09-07 10:00
I doubt that any instrument can be 'harder' than another when it comes to physical strain - initially some require more effort (e.g trumpet), however, a good player who had a good teacher will learn to use their body efficiently in order to minimalise physical effort.
__________________
Don't hate me because I play Leblanc! ![[down]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smiley23.gif) Buffet
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Author: Bigno16
Date: 2004-09-07 10:30
LeWhite wrote:
> ...a good player who had a good
> teacher will learn to use their body efficiently in order to
> minimalise physical effort.
I agree. I think if people are hurting themselves, then they must be doing something wrong, or over-doing it. If you are doing everything correctly and keeping up with daily practice, why should you be suspect to injury?
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Author: LeWhite
Date: 2004-09-07 14:25
Exactly. And we have SO much tension in our bodies when we play, even when we're 'relaxed'. It has come to my attention recently just how important Alexander Technique is as well as pursuing more knowledge about our bodies, how they work, how we're working them, and to treat ourselves like athletes.
__________________
Don't hate me because I play Leblanc! Buffet
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Author: cavefish
Date: 2004-09-07 19:33
i would have to say brass are harder only because they are not a versatile as woodwinds woodwinds are 100% more expressive and i think alot more satisfing
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Author: GBK
Date: 2004-09-07 20:56
cavefish wrote:
> woodwinds are 100% more expressive
> and i think alot more satisfing
Go and listen to Louis Armstrong's recording of West End Blues and then try and tell me that trumpet playing is not as expressive as clarinet playing...GBK
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Author: elmo lewis
Date: 2004-09-08 02:19
Take Beethoven's 9th for example. The clarinets have about 20 pages of music-the trumpets have about 5 or 6. The clarinets play the whole slow movement with just a few rests. Its all soft but it has to be expressive, focused, and in tune. The trumpets are reading magazines and then play a few loud chords at the end. In the Scherzo the clarinets have about a million notes, all tongued. The trumpets play 1 note to the beat then rest during the trios. Now tell which instrument is more physically demanding.
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Author: Slithy Toves
Date: 2004-09-08 03:00
elmo lewis wrote:
> Take Beethoven's 9th for example. The clarinets have
> about 20 pages of music-the trumpets have about 5 or 6. The
> clarinets play the whole slow movement with just a few rests.
> Its all soft but it has to be expressive, focused, and in tune.
> The trumpets are reading magazines and then play a few loud
> chords at the end. In the Scherzo the clarinets have about a
> million notes, all tongued. The trumpets play 1 note to the
> beat then rest during the trios. Now tell which instrument is
> more physically demanding.
That just tells me that Beethoven's 9th may be more demanding for the clarinets than the trumpets. It really has nothing to do with how demanding each instrument is on the whole.
Sharon
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Author: GBK
Date: 2004-09-08 03:11
elmo lewis wrote:
> The clarinets play
> but it has to be expressive, focused, and in tune
Why just the clarinets? Shouldn't every instrument play that way - all the time?
> Now tell which instrument is
> more physically demanding.
I will...
Ask a professional trumpet player his opinion on playing the Bach Magnificat, or the Mass in B minor.
Or, how about the symphonies of Bruckner, or Mahler?
Or, how about a few of the Strauss tone poems?
Let's not forget about Prokofiev and Stravinsky...
By the way - don't forget to bring your piston trumpets in Bb, C and D along with your Bb and C rotary trumpets.
Playing Brandenburg No. 2? Bring your F trumpet.
Transposition? It had better be perfect - all the time...GBK
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Author: allencole
Date: 2004-09-08 06:31
What's even harder yet about woodwinds: The price of maintenance and repair on this miniature pawn shop that I carry around with me.
Allen Cole
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Author: diz
Date: 2004-09-08 06:51
Played in a performance of Carmena Burana (sp?) once and the first trumpet player fainted then fell of his chair ... served him right for not have good breath control.
Without music, the world would be grey, very grey.
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Author: ken
Date: 2004-09-08 19:41
Diz wrote: "Played in a performance of Carmena Burana (sp?) once and the first trumpet player fainted then fell of his chair ... served him right for not have good breath control."
-- Dude was hung-over man....
elmo_lewis: "The trumpets are reading magazines and then play a few loud chords at the end. In the Scherzo the clarinets have about a million notes, all tongued. The trumpets play 1 note to the beat then rest during the trios."
-- Physical demands aside, and I'm no trumpet lover, but it takes just as much a fine musician to patiently and attentively sit and count 40+ bars (or worse, know the piece, be bored or over confident with it), play a highly exposed note or critical passage then sit out another 40 bars; but not only consistently producing just the right note but a beautiful, quality pitch that is nailed, perfectly in-tune, precisely executed on the correct portion of the beat and with pinpoint accuracy.
Now, do it 100% of the time for 50 years and you have Bud Herseth.
I see this as an apples and oranges issue. In defense of the brass and its physical demands, if you learn the wrong fundamentals and develop bad habits, over time it can prove more debilitative, if not career-ending then with a woodwind instrument. Hands down, brass playing is mroe physically challenging than on woodwinds (for an advanced player, flute endurance and tonguing are negligible) but WE as single-double reed players endlessly labor with reeds and reed expense that at the practical level, are comparable to busted blood vessels, Dizzy cheeks and scarred lips. With a trumpet, the mouthpiece goes in and that’s it .... have a bad day, it's on the individual. Contrastingly, careers are just as made and broken with bad reed days. We as clarinetists even with dedicated study, the most diligent reed preparation and valiant intentions are vulnerable to the elements. And, the last time I asked a trumpet player, they have to learn and know transposition more then we do but not burdened with acquiring the time-honored skill of carpentering. v/r Ken
Post Edited (2004-09-08 21:09)
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Author: Contra
Date: 2004-09-08 22:23
I just had an image of a life without meticulous work and money spent over reeds.
Man, that's a boring life.
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2004-09-09 22:13
Think of the Brass Players as the Weight Lifters and the Woodwind players as the Gymnasts.
Both are very physical, but the Weight Lifters have to have more physical strength.
However, a Woodwind player can have stronger Respiratory Muscles than a Brass Player if the individual has it - can be seperate.
Example was when I tested a breathing product at ClarFest and scored in the top of the range for Respiratory Muscles (there are 3 products and the 3rd is for the Professional Athletes which was the one that I ended up scoring on, the tester was a Brass Player and he couldn't use that level as it was too hard for him.
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2004-09-10 00:38
I was playing with Trumpeter Phil Smith (NYPO Principal Trumpet) and he told me that he got a Hernia while playing a Mahler Symphony a while back (in the early 80's).
Clarinet players don't get Hernia's while playing - ever.
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Author: SNP
Date: 2004-10-07 08:41
I am new to the ClarinetBBoard but have an issue upon which your views would be most welcome.
A little background will help. Unlike the professionals whose contributions I have read, I actually gave up the clarinet when I was about 14 in favour of pursuing the piano and then decided some 32 years later to return to the instrument. It is interesting that after such a period, I was able to carry on where I left off and I am now an enthusiatic player having also taken up Alto and Tenor Sax. Such is my interest, that I am now working towards Grade 8 in November.
My question is a physical one. Enthusiastic practice has, I think led to some muscular discomfort around the rib cage. Controlled use of the diaphragm and sustained practice for often two hours at a time produces normal fatigue but the consequences of the muscular discomfort are only felt when I wake up at 4am with back ache - never interestingly during practice. I returned to playing about 2 years ago and this is the first time that I have noticed this side effect. It has to be said though that the practice level has been more demanding of late.
The other ailments described in this email string are all understandable and one can take steps to ameliorate the position but I would be grateful if anyone has ever had my symptons and can offer any advice.
I think this ClarinetBBoard is really useful - I have learnt so much through it.
All help gratefully received
Simon
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2004-10-07 14:55
GBK -
Better not bring an F piccolo trumpet to a 2nd Brandenburg these days. It's natural trumpet or nothing.
And if you want to play a *really* difficult instrument, try cornetto (a curved, recorder-shaped instrument with a trumpet mouthpiece). It has all the bad things about both families -- trumpet embouchure and breath pressure, woodwind fingering (without keys to help), plus it's own particular set of nasties, particularly the fact that you can play any note with any fingering. Opening a hole only makes it possible to play a note with decent tone, but doesn't come close to making it in tune. Not to mention the near impossible task of getting a nice sound out of a tube less than two feet long.
Ken Shaw
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Author: 3dogmom
Date: 2004-10-10 21:51
New post to an old thread that I just got around to reading -
none of you mentioned the flute. Man, I get dizzy just playing the scale when I'm out of practice on it. I can play most everything, as I have to be able to teach my students, but find myself most physically challenged by the flute. Is it just me?
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Author: GEM
Date: 2004-10-11 02:05
SNP wrote:
"Enthusiastic practice has, I think led to some muscular discomfort around the rib cage. Controlled use of the diaphragm and sustained practice for often two hours at a time produces normal fatigue but the consequences of the muscular discomfort are only felt when I wake up at 4am with back ache "
Go see a doctor. At our age, a few things can start to go wrong; and we need to have them looked at. It might not have anything to do with your clarinet.
GEM
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