 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: AbrahamFack;e
Date: 2004-09-01 03:24
I had my first clarinet lesson as a music education major today. I've used lurie #4 reeds (lavoz hard or rico royal 4 at times) forever and have never had any trouble with them. However, my new teacher says that if I am going to be his student, I must use "proffessional quality" reeds, reeds with "higher manufacturing standards" then my favorite brands. He says this catagory includes vandoren regular or v-12 and rico grand concert.
As far as I can tell, vandorens are unbelievably inconsistant and the grand concerts sound like boards.
He says they play better then properly broken in and gave me a sheet explaining the proper break in procedure, which looks to be quite similar to what I already do (sanding the backs, soaking and rubbing, refacing, etc.)
Will I have to just get used to these "higher quality" reeds? Are there any other brands that I might be able to get away with using instead? Does anyone have any tips for getting the most out of an uneven vandoren or a stuffy grand concert? Thank you
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Author: saxlite
Date: 2004-09-01 03:58
I think your teacher is remarkably narrow minded. However, if you must comply, I suggest you get the Tom Ridenour ATG Reed Finshing System and study the DVD and user's guide carefully. You will learn many important things about how reeds are made and how to test and adjust them. As a serous student, this is critical knowledge. Do a Google search on "Tom Ridenour" to find him.
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Author: EEBaum
Date: 2004-09-01 04:01
As far as you can tell?
Did you actually try, or is this hearsay?
The vandorens can be inconsistent to some people, but, like he says, they play better when broken in properly.
If it plays badly, put it aside. It might play well in a few months.
If you're a music major, you should also put aside the notion of "getting away with" things. The difference may not be immediately evident to you at the start of significant college study (for me, whatever made the note come out had to be good!), and it does differ from person to person, but on the whole, such higher quality reeds perform better for a good majority of cases, and become quasi-standard. A bit of difficulty in the near future will surely improve your playing in the long run.
I've personally had some good luck with the Vandoren 56 Rue Lepic, though they run a bit more expensive and opinions vary, and also with Gonzalez. The V12, I find (probably just a coincidence), play better if you open the box, then set it aside for a year or so. I'm personally biased against the Grand Concert, but it's mostly an issue of snobbery rather than an abundance of personal experience. (I'm a card-carrying member of the Vandoren-Gonzalez mafia, not affiliated with but containing many of the same members of the Buffet mafia).
A search should reveal a plethora of threads on this topic.
-Alex
www.mostlydifferent.com
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Author: GBK
Date: 2004-09-01 04:02
AbrahamFack;e said:
> reeds with "higher manufacturing standards"
> then my favorite brands. He says this catagory
> includes vandoren regular or v-12 and rico grand concert.
There are many professionals (performers, as well as teachers) who will argue that the best reeds currently available are Gonzalez FOF's ...GBK
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Author: CPW
Date: 2004-09-01 04:07
Did he also suggest that you use a Borg clarinet?
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Author: John_May
Date: 2004-09-01 05:15
I'm kind of inclined to agree with you that VanDorens can be pretty inconsistent... out of a box of ten, I usually end up with a few that I find downright unplayable. The good ones, though, are easily the best reeds I've ever used (including V12s; not to naysay those who swear by them, but I've had less luck), and I've experimented with many. I also agree with whoever said to put those that aren't playing well aside for a while; I don't know why that works, but it often does for me.
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2004-09-01 07:00
I will go to the extreme and advise you to leave this teacher. I personally like a lot of different brands, but Grand Concert is one of my favorite. My first teacher (one of the best persons and clarinetists I've ever met) was an unbelievable player and she didn't really care what reed I use as long as it sounded good. She actually said to try LaVoz and Vandoren which were pretty much the only reeds available here. Both were good and bad, but different. After she recommended GC I tried them and liked them better so I started using mainly them, but if I then used a different brand for a while she didn't mind at all. Maybe come to your lesson with VD or GC reeds a few times, then try the LaVoz or Lurie again and see if he can tell. I bet he can't.
By the way, a Lurie or Rico 4 reed, is probably no more than 3.5 of a GC reed, and maybe even a 3 VD reed.
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Author: EEBaum
Date: 2004-09-01 07:14
Leave the teacher because s/he recommends a different brand of reeds? This seems a bit extreme, ESPECIALLY after just one lesson. In that situation, I'd try a few different new reeds, and if they still don't work for me, then ask the teacher what to do from then.
You're in college now, and your lessons are at a higher level. Most likely, your teacher is experienced and competent, and is providing input to help improve your technique and sound. Give it a try, at least!
I played LaVoz for a year or so in high school, and, no offense to anyone, they weren't exactly high-caliber reeds in retrospect. White they played very easy, they had a bit of an edgy twang to them. If I played them, my V12/Gonzalez friends would definitely notice. If they truly are better for you, that's fine, but this is quite possibly a situation where teacher knows best, or at least there is a good enough chance that teacher knows best that you should give it a shot.
-Alex
www.mostlydifferent.com
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Author: donald
Date: 2004-09-01 08:10
a Borg clarinet?
that's great, i'll remember that!
donald
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2004-09-01 08:31
Yes my approach is extreme, but not as extreme as telling a student he MUST use a different brand of reeds to study with him. The idea of suggesting a different brand is fine, but giving a student an ultimatum like that shows a lot about the teacher's personality. That is not someone I would want to study with.
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2004-09-01 10:44
clarnibass wrote:
> Yes my approach is extreme, but not as extreme as telling a
> student he MUST use a different brand of reeds to study with
> him.
This is college, with perhaps one or two clarinet teachers. Dropping the teacher probably means dropping clarinet.
I think that we have absolutely no real clue as to what is happening here. For all you know, the teacher immediately knew that the reeds being used were no good for this student and that a switch to a thicker blank (such as a V12 or GC) was the 1st step towards a better sound, and disagreeing with the teacher at this point (as a new student) is most certainly a way to alienate someone who is in the best position to judge what's right for the student, especially in such a low-cost manner.
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2004-09-01 11:21
The teacher was right.
The Grand Concert Reed only sounds like a "brick" because you are most likely using a strength which is TOO HARD.
Go down 1/2 and 1 strength and try them again. Use the Thick Blank Version.
My hunch is that you are using a G.C. #4 and it's just too damn hard for you.
Go down to a #3 - you will love em!
Also get the A.T.G. system as suggested - it's really good.
If you have more $$ to spend and want to get something also quite good get the Reed Wizard as it will help you to perfect your reeds too.
I use the Wizard for the part of the Vamp closest to the french cut and the ATG system for the tip balancing.
I adjust reeds easily and quickly without either of them, but they do make it a lot easier and quicker.
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Author: RAMman
Date: 2004-09-01 11:27
I've never played Lurie reeds...
I do play Vandorens...and agree that a correctly worked on Vadoren has the potential to play well, and also that straight out of the box they are inconsistent.
If your teacher wants you to change...change. Surely it's worth it...he is the only one giving advice who has actually heard (I believe) your playing.
My current teacher never mentions my reed choices, although a past teacher did insist I played on Vandorens.
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2004-09-01 11:49
I don't allow my students to play inferior reeds either.
If you're already spending the $$$$ on lessons, you need to play a good reed because it all starts at the reed.
1st year students (as in little kids) can play the Luries, but not beyond that.
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Author: jmsa
Date: 2004-09-01 13:47
I have been using Vandoren hand selected, which are extremely consistent. I also use the Tom Ridenour ATG system. This combination has solved all of my problems and has me currently living in Reed Heaven.
jmsa
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Author: William
Date: 2004-09-01 15:24
Borg clarinet?? Make them as aesthetically attractive as Seven of Nine (Jeri Ryan) and I'll have no problem practicing for hours on end.
As for reeds, my theory is play whatever works for you. Personally, I use Vandy V12s, 3.5, on my soprano and bass clarinets, but last evening played a Legere 3.25 during orchestra rehearsal--and it worked pretty good. At least, no one around me gave me any "disapproving" looks. Your personal sound is really more in your head than what kind of reed/mpc/barrel or clarinet you are playing. V12s are quite inconsistant, but as University of Michigan Professor of Clarinet, William (good name) H. Stubbins often used to scream at his students, "Play the reed--don't let the reed play you". In other words, learn to adjust the reed to your performance needs rather than trying to find that perfect reed that practically plays itself. I've known some good clarinetists that do well on M. Laurie reeds, but most play the Vandys. But whatever reed you use, you must learn to adjust and controll it for optimum performance. For me, the is nothing like a good, well adjusted Vandoran V12--but nothing works right after a week-long camping and fishing vacation. Good luck.
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Author: hans
Date: 2004-09-01 15:51
I am curious to know what the "higher manufacturing standards" might include.
Hans
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Author: BobD
Date: 2004-09-01 15:58
Some of the advice here is top notch....but not the bit about leaving the teacher. One of the first things a good teacher would do, I believe, is to listen to you play a bit and then examine your equipment. Sounds like he/she did just that.
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2004-09-01 19:34
The Mitchel Lurie Reeds aren't a Professional Quality - and there aren't any Orchestral players playing on them.
Maybe somebody in a pit somewhere uses em, but not somebody who has to sound good for a living. (not cutting pit players, but you probably know what I mean).
So the teacher wants his student to experience what a quality reed sounds and feels like.
It's a reasonable request!
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Author: lllebret
Date: 2004-09-01 19:47
If you respect your teachers playing (and you should, otherwise why study with them?), then perhaps it would be a good idea to try to do what he suggests for a reasonable period of time (say a year or two) and then see where you are. A large part of progressing on an instrument is learning to hear better, and even if you have elephant ears you don't hear yourself the same way an audience does (you hear yourself largely through bone conduction not through your ears). I don't think I could work Lurie reeds to get my sound- they are too thin and the quality of cane isn't there. If nothing else, you should get alot more reed life by switching brands. You are paying your teacher for professional advice- why not try taking it?
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Author: BobD
Date: 2004-09-01 22:15
My experience with Mitchell Lurie reeds is that they play "easy" but don't last.....and that's the same thing other friends have mentioned to me. That doesn't mean they're no good, however, As someone said, play them for a few hours and throw 'em away."
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Author: diz
Date: 2004-09-01 22:29
You know what ... narrow minded or not, whilst you're under his leadership I would take his advice (regardless of what you think). He's a professional and is paid for giving professional advice.
As to what people think about reeds ... get a life, it's a tedious and boring topic that is flogged on this BB more often than just about any other tedious and boring topic.
Just thank your luck stars you don't play a string instrument (I play clarinet and viola) and that your teacher doesn't make you have to learn a whole new fingering system (as happened to me when I studied in London).
Without music, the world would be grey, very grey.
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Author: mags
Date: 2004-09-01 22:30
Now..I don't want to start another thread...but you've all got me thinking...I just ask for a van doren reed at the music shop...not a certain type...what is the difference....and i just wet it and blow...i dont 'treat' it......i am a learner....not a year yet....am i plain daft?
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Author: John_May
Date: 2004-09-01 22:44
^No, it's not absolutely necessary, but it helps you get the sound you want out of your reed. Many sound fine out of the box, but often they can be improved, that's all. Since you're a beginner, I'd say that would be making things more complicated than they need to be. That said, I do hope you ask for a particular SIZE of VanDoren at the muisic shop... that could make a rather significant difference
Post Edited (2004-09-01 22:44)
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2004-09-02 02:06
Yes, you must ALWAYS ask for the correct "size"
You wouldn't want to get a Bass Clarinet Reed, nor an Eb reed for your Bb Clarinet 
(((((( yo, it's Strength, not Size that matters))))))))
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Author: John_May
Date: 2004-09-02 03:08
I knew I was going to get a comment on that...but you know what I mean. For some reason, I've always referred to it as "size". As have others I've played with, come to think of it. How odd.
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2004-09-02 07:59
OK, I change my opinion.
Like I've said before and David Blumberg also said, the Vandoren and Grand Concert reeds are harder comparing the same strength with the ones you are using. Try a 2.5-3 Vandorens and Grand Concert reeds and see if you still have problems with them. Anyway, I take back my advice of leaving the teaher, but I still think that forcing a student to do this instead of suggesting it nicely says a lot about the teacher's personality, and not for the better.
Post Edited (2004-09-02 08:50)
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Author: hans
Date: 2004-09-02 13:21
If things have gotten off to a bad start and the relationship has soured, it may be best to move on and find someone with less dictatorial inclination. IMO there are very few absolutes in life; reeds are not among them.
Hans
Post Edited (2004-09-02 13:23)
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2004-09-02 13:54
by the way - the Grand Concert Thick Blank are harder than the V-12 Vandoren's of the same strength.
Significantly harder.
I've always found that to be true even though I thought that the chart that they put out says otherwise.
I just looked at my reed card with brands and comparable strengths and it agrees with me
The Grand Concert Thick Blank #3 1/2 is comparable to a Vandoren V-12 #4
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Author: AbrahamFack;e
Date: 2004-09-02 21:42
Wow, I didn't expect this kind of response. I've actually got an ATG. Mr. Ridenour sold a few on eBay before releasing them on WWBW, Brookmays, etc. I bought it after hearing him speak on the subject of reed adjustment at the Idaho/Montana clarinet festival last year. Before getting it, I adjusted my reeds using sandpaper or dutch rush.
"As far as i can tell" means, "this is the most inconsistant reed I've tried, but there's probably something worse out there somewhere".
I've tried the vandorens in strength 2 1/2, 3, and 3 1/2, and the v-12's in 3 and 3 1/2. I've only tried GC's in strength 3, and while they felt fine, the tone produced had no ring or clarity to it.
My standard break-in procedure for new reeds consists of rubbing them against very fine sandpaper, then soaking and playing for a few minutes the first day and ATG-ing them; then soaking, rubbing against paper over glass, and rubbing the top with my fingers, playing for a longer period of time each day for a week. I allow them to dry flat against glass from day 1 until I throw them out. My teacher's recomended break-in prodedure is basically the same but eliminates the rubbing and lasts for two weeks.
I'm just really lost. Is there a brand out there that you don't have to completely reshape? Or am I doomed to spend a fortune on clarinet reeds for the rest of my life?
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2004-09-02 22:44
I get both Ring and Clarity on them.
No idea how come you didn't.
Post Edited (2004-09-02 22:46)
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Author: EEBaum
Date: 2004-09-03 01:35
Not to be rude, but if you're making this much of a fuss, perhaps the problem isn't the reeds.
For years I always blamed all my problems on the reeds. Once i actually started getting lessons, the reeds magically started playing better.
Also, position on the mouthpiece (with which I sometimes get lazy) makes an ENORMOUS difference. Try experimenting in that area.
Alternatively, go mouthpiece/ligature/barrel shopping.
-Alex
www.mostlydifferent.com
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