 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: diz
Date: 2004-08-17 23:40
Hi ... I know there is almost NO concensus on what consititute's the "traditional" set up of a jazz band, but can anyone (GBK for instance) tell me if this is accurate:
2 alto saxophones
2 tenor saxophones
1 bari saxophone
4 trumpets
4 trombones (3 tenor one bass)
acoustic/electric bass
drum kit
piano
(vocals as needed)
thanks
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Author: GBK
Date: 2004-08-18 00:23
Diz... I don't think there is any exact "standard" big band lineup, but you are very close to what is most common (1930's-1940's Big Band Era). Often, there will be a rhythm guitar included with the instruments you named.
The saxophones, of course would double on clarinet, as needed.
BTW - The recording I mailed to you, should reach you at the end of the week...GBK
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Author: diz
Date: 2004-08-18 02:15
GBK ... thanks
I'm trying to avoid doubling ... as every saxophone player may not necessarily own a bass-clarinet (but all MIGHT own a soprano one). [I was thinking here about the bari sax doubling on Bass Clarinet]
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Author: allencole
Date: 2004-08-18 04:31
I don't think that most of your charts will require much doubling, with some by Thad Jones and Toshiko Akioshi being notable exceptions. (even ALTO clarinets can be called for)
If bass clarinet is needed, it will almost certainly be assigned to the bari part. A couple of sax section things to watch for:
1 - Some older charts with clarinet lead may actually call for a clarinet, two alto saxes and two tenor saxes. It may be necessary to trade a few parts around in order to have your strongest clarinet player on lead--or more logically, put a good clarinet player on the bari sax book.
2 - Thad Jones big band often had a soprano sax in the lead, making the book soprano, alto, 2 tenors & bari.
3 - If there is a flute lead, it will probably be in your first alto book. Although there are some Quincy Jones and Oliver Nelson things where I believe there was a stand-along flutist (often doublingn lead trumpet) in addition to the 5-piece reed section.
Again, we're talking about rarer, and more difficult charts than most big bands deal with. The instrumentation that you mentioned in your first post should be perfectly fine for most applications.
Again, I think that doubling is on the wane. One of my bandleaders has asked me to stop writing clarinet and flute passages in arrangements for him. It makes his field of possible substitutes too narrow.
Allen Cole
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Author: diz
Date: 2004-08-18 05:29
Allen ... thank you for your input, appreciated and thought provoking.
diz | sydney
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Author: JMcAulay
Date: 2004-08-18 11:26
In the bright days of Paul Whiteman's orchestra ("The King of Jazz"), many thought the sun of Jazz rose and set on Paul's shiny head. And Whiteman's instrumentation frequently included a banjo. Also, Whiteman's orchestra generally used a tuba, not a stringed instrument, for the bottom of the ensemble. This was common during the 1920s and well into the 1930s. The Whiteman version of Jerome Kern's "Make Believe" (one of the earliest Bing Crosby vocal recordings) exhibits especially well the use of tenor banjo and tuba in Jazz.
Note that in olden days of Jazz, when traditions were first becoming traditional, the Clarinet was far from an unknown instrument in a big Jazz band. But Clarinet parts (or saxes doubling on Clarinet) seem to appear less and less often in newer charts. "Traditional" instrumentation seems to be used now to describe "whatever the chartmaker or bandleader thinks ought to be in a Jazz band." So diz, do it your way and no one will complain. No more so than usual, anyway.
Allen, thanks much for your comments.
Regards,
John
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2004-08-18 11:58
Hi,
There were some Woody Herman charts that even called for bassoon when Chris Vidala was playing and I do recall a Chick Corea chart that used piccolo (might have been Spain or another well-known hit at the time). But those are extremely rare instances and not worth considering.
The "standard" setup is pretty much as you originally outlined, Diz.
HRL
PS I have played piccolo from time to time at jam sessions - just for grins - but have never used it on a job.
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2004-08-18 13:55
diz,
You've pretty much got it right, I think (by the way, in both of the jazz bands I'm in currently, I double on bari and 2nd tenor, thus there are only 4 saxes --- many of the older charts we play, 1920s through 1940s, are written that way --- in fact on any given night I'm probably playing a bit more tenor than baritone, with an occasional clarinet part).
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Author: William
Date: 2004-08-18 14:45
In our "Retro" Swing band (bunch of local retired musicians who meet on Monday afternoons to either rehearse or play at local nursing homes for free), all of the saxes double on Bb clarinet. The bari player also plays an alto sax and the 4th (2nd) tenor also plays bass clarinet. Some flute in the lead alto book. Some trumpet parts also call for flugal horn. We have access to a library of over 1000 original published arrangements of the "big band" era as well as a collection of original arrangements done by Skitch Henderson for the old Tonight Show Orchestra, and most call for the basic instrumentation that Diz (& GBK) has outlined. Our Retro Swing Band is lucky to have a retired UW-Whitewater jazz professor who serves as our leader and is also doing a lot of new arrangements for our group with a few calling for five clarinets--"Odd Couple Theme" is one. Also, when considering "instrumentation", we should remember the mellophones used by the Stan Kenton Orchestra and the "four brothers" (tenor saxes) of the Woody Herman Orchestra.
Kind of rambl'n this am, but hope this adds some relavent info to the thread.
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Author: ken
Date: 2004-08-20 01:47
Nothing much to add that hasn't been covered other than to piggy back on allencole; besides Toshiko-Tabackin, Thad & Mel and Maynard, there were 70s thru 90s period big bands, i.e. Bob Curnow, Bob Mintzer, Carson Tonight Show Band, Louie Bellson and Rob McConnell and the Boss Brass. During their personal evolution, these guys wrote for, recorded and toured with over-size ensembles of 22-piece plus. Some called it the mini-orchestra craze (no, Yanni and John Tesh don't rate).
In the early 80's before his stroke, I saw McConnell's behemoth shoehorned onto a Buffalo nightclub stage. They had a full sax section, 5 trumpets and bones each; (including Rob on valve) add Guido Basso exclusively on Flugel, plus 2 horns ... talk about way overcooked but a wall of sound that has to be experienced firsthand to be believed! v/r Ken.
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Author: ned
Date: 2004-08-20 06:03
What's your definition of a band? A single musician performing is not a band, a duo might be described as such and a trio certainly is.
So if you agree with this then, any number of musicians from three onwards is technically a band. As to what can be construed as a ''traditional'' band it depends on the genre of jazz to which you are referring.
The instance you have cited, could loosely be termed traditional with respect to the big band era of earlier years, although the big bands which operate today tend to have a similar instrumentation.
I seem to think that the terms ''jazz'' and ''traditional'', when combined, have a rather different meaning to most people who know jazz, in that they (myself included) tend to think of a smallish combo of five to eight musos playing largely unwritten music which, I have heard described by some observers as ''folk'' music and hence, the word traditional is highly appropriate.
Bands employing any number of musicians, and reading charts are probably not best described as traditional.
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Author: diz
Date: 2004-08-25 23:56
William .. how delightful, playing for old folks and not charging for it, bravo.
Dave ... do you enjoy the deep, throaty bari sax tone? (especially considering your penchant for bass clarinet).
Without music, the world would be grey, very grey.
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Author: Buster Brown
Date: 2004-08-26 12:58
In the Lennie Niehaus days of Kenton he used 1 alto (Niehaus), 1 tenors and 2 baritones. The sound was great!
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2004-08-26 13:49
diz,
Bari is my favorite sax (with tenor a close runner-up) --- I do love the sound and feel of it --- my 'bari heroes' are the late (sadly!) Nick Brignola, Ronnie Cuber, Bruce Johnstone (an Aussie, I believe?), Sahib Shihab, and the all-time greatest, Harry Carney of the Ellington band (you're probably surprised not to see Gerry Mulligan's name --- his playing is a bit too sugary-sweet and insubstantial for my tastes). Pardon the digression.......
Bari sax and bass clarinet make very good 'doubling partners' for jazz big bands.
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Author: Terry Stibal
Date: 2004-08-26 14:00
My group has what is more or less the "traditional standard" 5444 instrumentation; five saxes, four trumpets, four trombones, and four rhythm. This stabilized over the years as the best voicing with the least number of players; more bang for the buck.
Of our seven hundred-ish arrangments (about half custom for us, the rest standards from other groups), virtually all from about 1935 onward are for 5444 (plus vocals where appropriate); the rest are either oddball stuff (Kenton and the like) or stock arrangements from the days before we had recorded music and every hotel and restaurant had live performers.
As for doubling, the Goodman era used the baritone slot for the clarinet (most of his arrangements drop bari for clarinet). Nowadays, it's usually in the 1st Alto parts, but I have them arranged that way so my best clarinet player doesn't have to swap things around. In such cases, I play the alto line instead of the clarinet. And this is for all music, all periods (although the clarinet never gets used for rock or R&B, and seldom for pop).
There were also the days of all tenor sax section and the like...cute but not as harmonious, in the opinion of me and many others.
As for doubling, I have clarinet flute doubles on 1 Alto, 2 Alto, Baritone, and 2 Tenor, and clarinet on 1 Tenor. As a life long bass clarinet player, I take those when they show up, although they usually are in the baritone part in any event. Other locations where the bass shows up are in 1 Tenor (Zito arrangements) and one or two in an alto part.
High school groups here in the USA often stack in many other players, but they are seldom doublers at that level.
We sometimes drop down to 4334 when the stage size is small. But we never drop the bass trombone or baritone; not enough bottom when you do that.
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