 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: diz
Date: 2004-08-17 04:49
Not strictly clarinet related ... I had an opportunity of hearing who I thought was a wonderful violinist recently (Salvatore Accardo sp?) playing Tchiakowsky's fiddle concerto ... it was dreadful, wrong notes, out of tune octaves, missed notes and slipped entries ... I can only assume he'd not looked at the piece for a while and then suddenly remembered his concerts in Sydney and Melbourne. Fun, all the recordings I've heard of him have been wonderful, just goes to show what a studio artist can achieve, eh? I think a lot of foreign artists are surprised at the high standard of our orchestras here ... we all know how good American ones are because our American cousins remind us of the fact constantly (and good they are too).
Have you ever experience an "idol" live and been dissapointed?
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Author: donald
Date: 2004-08-17 09:17
for Clarinet players my experience has more often been the other way around- i find live performances far more engaging that the recordings (this was especially true of Sabine Meyer, Alan Hacker, Karl Leister and Alessandro Carbonare). And i've only once been disapointed by a string player (i mean, famous string players) (ordinary string players have disapointed me MANY TIMES).
Australian orchestras? i haven't actually heard one live, but have heard top quality recordings/broadcasts. When i was in the US i remember a graduate class laughing at the concept of the Tasmanian Symphony orchestra.... until the music started (CD, not live)... THEN they were all very impressed.
in NZ we have only TWO good orchestras and THREE "semi pro", but then our population is only 4 million. You can hear some top notch playing down under, but get some noses in the air from the northerners (US/Europe) now and then (at least once on this board).
Queensland, Melbourne and Sydney are great bands. NZSO is on the UK classical charts at the moment (Maestro Uwe Grodd conducting Hummel ich denke).... so they can't be THAT BAD, right?
keep playing the good tunes
donald
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Author: Tom A
Date: 2004-08-17 12:03
At my grad ceremony ten years ago, Barry Tuckwell was guest speaker (as well as being awarded an honorary doctorate). Some will know him as one of the finest F horn players in the world. He mentioned that, during a studio recording of a Mozart concerto, he split one in the middle of a passage. After the session, he then watched and listened to the technician explain how he was correcting the note digitally on his computer. Tuckwell thought the result was perfect . . . well, too much so. He said he "felt dirty".
Now, I don't think he meant he'd have been happy with the split note. In days of old I suppose they would simply have done another take. It was probably the fact that, be it mistake or re-take, it would have been his own work being heard by music lovers.
This relates to Diz's point about recordings; much can be achieved using time and technology, but much also depends on the integrity of the musician. The concert hall is unforgiving to the less than perfectly prepared artist, no matter how often he's had his name in platinum. And apart from being at the Accardo concert myself, a violinist in the SSO later gave me a similar opinion to Diz about the performance.
Anyone remember Dmitris Sgouros? The boy wonder pianist (he was 16)came to Australia at the end of the 80s with great fanfare. I heard a fine but unremarkable Tchaikovsky No. 1 from him, and haven't heard his name mentioned since.
The caveat is that I'm sure some of us have been to performances where it was not completely polished but still bloody exciting and immediate. For me, no recording beats that.
Kia ora, Donald. Apart from Wellington weather, I wish I was living there. I've heard some of the NZSO recordings on Naxos. Sounds great to me, especially the Hindemith.
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2004-08-17 14:20
A well-known retired symphony bass clarinetist told me once about how they were recording Shostakovich's 6th Symphony, with the long bass clarinet solo that is meant to be played as a continuous legato line with no breath --- I had mentioned to him how I use this line as a 'mouthpiece test" of efficiency --- it's an efficient mouthpiece if the entire solo can be played without breathing in the middle --- and since on his recording his solo went without a break, I asked him how he managed it -- he said that he DID take a breath, but the studio had him do a few takes, and they spliced them together to make one seamless solo. Did he feel guilty about it? No, he told me, "if they can fix Galway in the studio, then they can fix me too!" (or words to that effect). I have no doubt that many glitches are 'repaired' in the studios nowadays.
On the other hand, I'll never forget one concert I heard about ten years ago of tenor saxophone virtuoso Mike Brecker with his band, doing one of the last shows of a long tour, when they played many tunes I had at home on CD, but played them live at least 20% faster than on the recordings, and every piece was note-perfect! Live, from memory, and absolutely flawless --- it can be done.
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Author: Kevin
Date: 2004-08-17 15:23
Unless they are recorded live, I really don't like CD's for no other reason other than the studio edits. I get the feeling I'm being cheated since I'm not exactly listening to a pure performance, but only bits and excerpts pasted together by an audio engineer.
Now with that being said, one of my favorite hobbies is still building a classical music collection of CD's...
But of course...no recording can beat the excitement of a live performance.
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Author: graham
Date: 2004-08-17 17:04
I was recently doing the Shos 6 solo on bass and could not get to the end of that solo in one breath come hell or high water. I listened to my Boult CD version where the player did so (with or without edits, I do not know). I listened several times to see how it might have been done. It seems Boult allowed the solo to flow a little faster than the prevailing tempo (though at first listening it seemed to be the same speed, which is a strange phenomenon), and he was also allowed to play it in a wan and plaintive manner, i.e. at low dynamic with no swells etc..
Of course, my own conductor wanted it to be pulled back, played romantically with swells, and complete with the crescendo that comes just before the final long low A. So I was stuffed. No choice but to break quite audibly
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2004-08-17 17:11
graham,
Every so often I can do it in one breath with the right mouthpiece, a relatively soft reed, and a bit of pre-emptive hyperventilating! It's not easy, that's for sure...........
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Author: diz
Date: 2004-08-17 23:37
Gordon ... I've not hear the NZSO live, unfortunately, but we do occasionally get broadcasts courtesy of Concert FM (? whatever your broadcaster is called). I heard your wonderful national orchestra playing Mahler 4 quite recently and was blown away by the virtuosity ... must make a visit to Wellington.
As to Aussie orchestras ... there's only two I won't listen to: Adelaide and Western Australian Symphonies unless there's nothing else on TV. Otherwise all the east coast orchestras are very fine.
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Author: Jim E.
Date: 2004-08-18 04:08
An artistic dilema for sure. Flawless studio "performances" give false expectations of audiences at live performances, yet a flawed recording would beg questions about why the resources of the art form (recording) were not used to full advantage.
A visual art example might be the pictures Hugh Hefner published in Playboy. These were airbrushed to absolute perfection (in the days before digital photo manipulation) yet Hef proclaimed the models to be "the girl next door." The real girls next door could never compare to the studio enhanced photos.
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Author: donald
Date: 2004-08-18 08:01
hey Diz
i'll phone GORDON and get him to read the posting you addressed to him
donald
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Author: graham
Date: 2004-08-18 08:16
There are three well known studio recordings of the Mozart Concerto by Jack Brymer, one of which I know quite well. Having, as a youth, heard a fair amount of Brymer playing live, I did not find my recording of him quite convincing. It played to the most positive aspects of his tone, namely a relaxed silvery effect, even in the loud passages. I knew that Brymer could sound quite rippingly harsh in a live situation, so I suspected he played at low dynamic throughout, and the recording engineers did the rest.
Then the BBC published a live performance of the Mozart with Brymer in the Proms in 1965. The Proms takes place in the massive acoustic of the Albert Hall, which of course Brymer had no choice but to try and fill. This recording gives a much clearer idea of what Brymer sounded like live. It also contains a significant number of errors (Brymer was far from infallible). The slow movement has the most vibrato I have ever heard used in this piece. There are some nice things in it but it would probably shock those whose picture of Brymer's playing is based on his studio recordings.
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Author: msloss
Date: 2004-08-18 13:16
For those of you who have not run a recording session, or played for one, the environment and psychology is very different than a live performance. I have recorded some of the most accomplished concert artists working today, who can be counted on to deliver a flawless performance live. Even these people working at the pinnacle of their art get a little psyched when the tape starts rolling.
There are two dynamics at work -- first, as performers we draw a certain amount of artistic energy from interaction with the audience which just isn't present in an empty hall or a recording studio. Second, the recognition that the tape is an indelible record focuses us even more keenly on the micro-details of the performance. That level of intensity is difficult to sustain, and the briefest of mental lapses can lead to something you want to fix. I rarely encounter purely technical errors, although they do happen. Often it is something interpretational that didn't fully capture the performer's intent.
Now, getting out the razor-blade and splicing is principally an economic consideration. Time is money, and asking for repeat performances of entire movements waiting for perfection is expensive and extremely physically and emotionally taxing on the performer. If we can achieve the vision with a few edits, it isn't artistically dishonest or a cheat. We know that performance is within the abilities of the artist, so why waste time when it is simple to fix. It isn't airbrushing, because the girl really is that beautiful. However, if someone fabricates a performance in the studio of a concert work that is beyond the capability of the artist, then you are putting lipstick on a pig as it were, and can throw darts.
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Author: BobD
Date: 2004-08-18 14:04
Salvatore can't be a kid anymore.....can he? Some people are never satisfied.
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Author: diz
Date: 2004-08-19 00:06
Donald ... opps ... you know I've got recalcitrant fingers!!
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Author: diz
Date: 2004-08-19 00:08
BobD said:
Salvatore can't be a kid anymore.....can he? Some people are never satisfied.
I agree ... but if you're playing days are winding down and your virtuosic skills aren't quite what they once were ... then take yourself OFF the concert circuit ... simple. Otherwise, expect criticism.
And for the record ... I'm easily satisfied, frankly, but not by substandard playing ... especially not at the prices charged to see "stella artists".
Without music, the world would be grey, very grey.
Post Edited (2004-08-19 00:09)
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