 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: williamainsworth
Date: 2004-08-11 17:32
This is just for the sake of argument and it's not just my own thought. A conductor of a concert band I played with thought that the band would sound better with more thirds and less firsts. Particulary since the thirds are often buried in the middle of the band and especially when the trumpets dynamically challenged, the thirds would not be very effective.
Again, someone remarked on one of the threads that you never hear a conductor asking the firsts to play louder and the thirds to play quieter. In fact I have often heard the conductor ask the thirds to "Bring that out" or, "Mark that mezzo forte instead of piano".
So how would it sound if, given that you had nine clarinets, they would be arranged as two firsts, three seconds and four thirds?
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Author: msroboto
Date: 2004-08-11 17:39
It would probably sound just about right. If all players are strong enough. If the 4 thirds can't cover the part it's the same as having none.
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Author: EEBaum
Date: 2004-08-11 18:57
The ensemble I play in is 2/3/3 (all quite competent players), and I've been head of the 3rds for the past two years. I'm a bit of a timid player to begin with, so the conductor is always asking for more. I've finally begun to rise to the occasion. Our firsts have indeed been asked to play louder, and more recently, our thirds to back off a bit, though the occurrence is still rare.
-Alex
www.mostlydifferent.com
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Author: Camanda
Date: 2004-08-11 20:34
I like the idea of 2/3/4. I played third parts for two years and couldn't even hear my own section half the time -- there were six of us. I never really knew why, in my band director's mind, there had to be so many people carrying melody.
Our Wind Ensemble was pretty badly balanced last year in the clarinet section -- 4/1/3. That's what we were listed as. The two movements of the William Byrd Suite were actually 1/1/3/3 (1st chair on solo, me on first, the other two firsts on second, and everyone else where they belong), and The Iliad was 3/1/4 (first chair played third part instead).
If I had any say in people per part in my band, which I don't, I'd want to get as close to 2/3/4 as possible -- except now I think we only have five people. Eep.
Amanda Cournoyer
URI Clarinet Ensemble, Bass Clarinet
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Author: glin
Date: 2004-08-11 20:41
In my experience, you can never have too many 3rds and could always use less firsts.
The lower register in the 3rd parts just gets buried beneath the upper parts. One way to get around this problem is to have more players play the 3rd part. In other words, more low parts than high parts. This is the pyramid chord scheme with low parts on the bottom. Vice versa, playing 1st parts is very tough because you have to play the upper register well and quite often have to play softer than written, just to get a balanced sound.
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Author: ken
Date: 2004-08-12 04:32
The general, all-purpose rule of thumb is you want twice as many clarinets as trumpets. The configuration 2-3-4 is mostly ideal in concert band settings particularly with 5 or less saxophones (one on a part, or missing 2nd alto and/or 2nd tenor). Wind Bands, and ensemble physics won't permit 4, 3rds with 5 to 7 in a section. Another option (if all conditions favor it) is put the 2nd best player on 1st-3rd to balance the top and provide a more solid, supporting bottom end (hey, if you're tuning from the bottom some of you're best players should be down there too and not bunched up in the front row competing pitch with the flutes and piccs.
In truth, and in my experience each clarinet chair and parts are a specialty within themselves, (not unlike high and low horns). More options, is not prioritize and assign chairs strictly by skill, (i.e. 2 best players on 1st desk sharing 1st-solo duties). This approach is not always practical in an amateur group , however, in a professional or top collegiate ensemble, chair placement is more flexible.
You wind up pretty much, and from time to time experimenting by moving the clarinets around for the desired imaging and blend. 3 rows deep to the left, 2nds in the front row but it's tight if you got oboes/English horn at the other end, or 2 rows with the 3rds next to saxes. Myself, I am more of an advocate of instrument placement by voicing not family continuity (i.e., bass clarinet(s) with the Bari, bassoons and horns, and String Bass with Tubas and Euphs. Traditional rhythm section with drum kit and keys is of course, different). In the end, it's whatever floats the conductor's boat. v/r Ken
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Author: diz
Date: 2004-08-12 04:42
Last time I heard a band play they were professional ... the Navy Band (Australian) ... they had one on a part and all were perfectly equal ... therein is the paradox ... blending and listening ...
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Author: EEBaum
Date: 2004-08-12 04:55
Part of the sound-getting-lost problem, in clarinet sections, also tends to stem from lapses in intonation. There is a sharp difference in sound between an in-tune and an out-of-tune clarinet section. An in-tune section will also carry its sound much further. However, this is rarely something that just "happens." Rather, it's often something that must be worked at, and can only really gel when section members play well with each other and fill in each other's sound. Until then, all you can really do is keep putting more people on 3rd until the mesh is loud enough to hear.
The geography (not in the front, with horns right behind you) doesn't help 3rds much either.
-Alex
www.mostlydifferent.com
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Author: allencole
Date: 2004-08-13 02:08
Actually, I see quite a few of my local groups doing the equivalent of 2/3/4. The best group that I'm involved in is 3/4/5.
New rule of thumb? Line your clarinets up like bowling pins.
Allen Cole
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Author: Contra
Date: 2004-08-13 02:14
I think the reason that the thirds aren't always heard are that the players are disappointed that they got such a "low" part. I noticed the third part players that we have rarely played during concert season. But in an ideal world where they all play to the best of their abilities, 2/3/4 sounds like a very good idea.
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2004-08-13 02:55
Hi,
When I was doing the HS band director thing many years ago, I moved the 2rd clarinets to the 3rd row and the 3rd clarinets to the second row. This really worked pretty well.
HRL
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