 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2004-07-28 21:16
Hi Everyone,
I am thinking about purchasing a recording device in the near future and would like to see what's happened since the following two threads were posted.
http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/read.html?f=1&i=34812&t=34776
http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/read.html?f=1&i=113090&t=112980
With technology moving extremely fast, does anyone have any updates to purchasing a new "state-of-art" machine? I am particularly interested in recording some piano accompaniments, a community band rehearsal from time-to-time, or perhaps an occasional gig. I might want to transfer the digital information to my computer, edit lightly, and possibily burn a CD.
I would prefer to have a re-writeable format on the mini-disc if this is not terrifically expensive. Price is an object!
Thanks,
HRL
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Author: John Scorgie
Date: 2004-07-28 22:40
Allow me to join in Hank Lehrer's request and address this post especially to the younger players out there (those for whom the audio cassette is antiquated technology).
Some of us older analog types understand the basic principles of digital recording well enough, but are totally baffled when it comes to actually making quality recordings with the new technology.
By way of background, I did many rather nice recordings with my reel to reel tape recorders, but I sold all of that equipment several years ago. All I have left are two dynamic mics and one condensor mic.
I have tried recording with several cassette tape decks but all of them have exhibited serious problems on live recordings of solo instruments such as the piano or clarinet (overload, dropouts, wow and flutter).
I have one of these newer "media" computers which both plays and records CDs and DVDs, although I have yet to figure out exactly how to dub my LPs and cassettes onto CDs, let alone transfer live recordings to CD.
Any help will be greatly appreciated.
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2004-07-28 22:52
Hi John,
Yes, it sounds like you and I are after about the same thing. I'm happy to have you join me in the quest. This may be like solving computer problems; ask a 14 year old (they seem to know everything about these type issue)!
HRL
PS Remember when we thought a bass reflex speaker cabinet or a folded horn was the only way to go?
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Author: John O'Janpa
Date: 2004-07-29 00:11
Hank,
I'm only familiar with the Sony NZ N707, and the Sony ECM MS957 Mic that I've had for about a year and a half now. I love it. I use it to record concerts, practices, whatever. I leave the thing on auto, set the mike angles as wide as they'll go and let it do its thing. (Be sure not to bump the mic when it's recording.) It puts 80 minutes on a minidisk at better than MP3 quality. The only bummer is that if I want to burn some CDs of what I've recorded (seldom), I haven't found a way to feed it into my computer to create wave files etc., other than to play it in at real time, and then I can do anything I want with the wave files (in Cakewalk).
Mostly what I use it for is to record my Wind Symphony rehearsals, and then practice at home with the headphones on. To me it's just like being there.
The recorder fits in my shirt pocket, and the microphone fits in my pants pocket (although there is a bulge.) Usually I carry them in my clarinet bag, along with my other extra clarinet goodies.
Apparently my ears aren't good enough to hear the difference between the square waves and sine waves.
These are available on the internet for about $150 for the recorder and $200 for the microphone. (I bought my Mic used for about half that and haven't had any problems.
I'm sure you'll get plenty of other suggestions from people who keep up with this stuff, but I will say I'm thrilled with what I have, and glad that I bought it.
John
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Author: hans
Date: 2004-07-29 00:49
John (Scorgie),
Re: "how to dub my LPs and cassettes onto CDs....," This may not be what you are looking for, but I do this with a dedicated CD burner component, which writes only to audio CDs, in my stereo system.
First I copy the LP/cassette onto an audio CD-RW in the stereo system, then use the audio CD-RW to burn a CD-R in my computer. It works quite well.
The (relatively expensive) audio CD-RW is good for around 1000 uses, if I remember correctly.
I hope to have all of my LPs converted to CD before CD technology becomes obsolete. Oops... too late!
Regards,
hans
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Author: John O'Janpa
Date: 2004-07-29 01:22
John (Scorgie)
I record all my analog stuff into my computer by using the inputs and outputs of a dinosaur four channel tape recorder I have, as a mixing console, and feeding the tape recorder outputs into my soundcard via miniplugs, "y" adapters, etc. I then record at real time into wav files using Cakewalk Pro audio software.
Once this has been done, I can do just about anything you can think of. Make CDs, MP3s, add effects, add other wav tracks(ie. play& record along with it), add midi tracks, speed them up, slow them down, whatever.
Its sort of mind boggling for those of us who remember the days before ordinary people had televisions or stereos.
John O'Janpa
PS An audiophile had a tube type (mono of course) amplifier and one Klipshorn
Speaker cabinet.
Post Edited (2004-07-29 01:33)
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Author: Tara
Date: 2004-07-29 02:29
My husband and I use a Sony minidisc for a lot of things, and have been very impressed with the quality. We have found it a bit difficult to find them (for other people) with mike inputs. We have a Sony condenser mike that is fantastic. We are band directors, and we find very often that our own minidisc recordings of concerts or contests are far superior quality than those done "professionally". A very good device in my opinion!
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2004-07-29 03:27
Hi Everyone,
This is exactly the kind of information that I have been looking for.
J'OJ: I think you mentioned this rig in one of the threads that I posted from a while back. So, this is still working fine? Way to go (I'll do a search to see if it is available on eBay). BTW, I remember some old Heathkits that I built.
One last question, John, is the minidisc re-writeable?
Hans: When I get ready to do teh cionversion of records to CDs, I'll need to talk to you a little on the phone if you would eb so kind. Probably not till fall though.....
Tara: Any Sony model #s you can share?
Thanks all,
HRL
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Author: LeOpus1190s
Date: 2004-07-29 04:39
They are great to use to hear yoruself but watch out, they break. I have gone through two and take very good care of my electronics.
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2004-07-29 10:46
James,
I am also very careful with my electronics but these things are somewhat delicate I would assume.
Was your breakage internal (printed circuit, disc transport, etc.) or external case damage? What recorder have you been using and is there an external mic?
HRL
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Author: Selphie
Date: 2004-07-29 11:02
I've used my Sony MZ-N1 net md to record everything from treble recorder to my Gibson Les Paul with great results using a fairly basic stereo mic I bought from Maplin.
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Author: glin
Date: 2004-07-29 12:38
Hank,
I recommend the Minidisc recorder. It is easy to use and lightweight. Great for recording your practice sessions and ensembles (note-you will need to get a mic, if you don't have one already). Sony and Sharp seem to be the two makers out there.
The Sony MZ-N1 is the one that I own. I've had it for over a year now, and have not experienced any problems. It is a very portable device-great for on the go. As far as uploading your "live" digital recordings from Mindisc to PC, Sony doesn't allow that feature. But you can purchase software called Win NMD to convert your digital Minidisc recording to MP3 and upload it to your PC.
Make sure you get a minidisc player/recorded with a mic input feature. The less expensive ones don't have this.
The new Sony minidisc player/recorders offer more extended recording time onto a new minidisc format. I think it is up to 45 hours for about 1GB of media and it is called Hi-MD.
Regards,
George Lin
Fairfax, VA
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Author: LeWhite
Date: 2004-07-29 13:41
Yes, the new format is Hi-MD, but you need a 1GB disc. It is also compatible with the 'normal' ones.
I'm getting one next month, I'll let you know what it's like.
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Author: msloss
Date: 2004-07-29 13:47
Hank -- one other interesting idea now out there. There is an accessory for the iPod (link below) that allows you to use it as a portable audio recorder. The gizmo that attaches to it has a dictaphone-type mic on it, but allows you to plug in an external mic as well. You can then mount the iPod as a firewire drive on your computer and manipulate the sound files as you see fit. Completely rewritable, and you don't have to worry about running out of space on your MD in the middle of a gig.
http://store.apple.com/1-800-MY-APPLE/WebObjects/AppleStore?productLearnMore=T9635LL/A
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2004-07-29 14:04
Hi,
Wow, more great ideas. My cup runneth over. One of my sons is high on the iPod setup but I have always been a PC-maffia type.
Thanks.
HRL
PS Now to figure out how to sneak the stuff into the house.
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2004-07-29 15:09
Why not wait a year or two for the price of hard-disk recorders to come down? Then you won't have to worry about recording media or format at all. Me, I'm sticking to my analog open-reel tape machines --- they can't BECOME obsolete because they already ARE.
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Author: Terry Stibal
Date: 2004-07-29 15:18
Regarding the iPod "microphone" accessories:
1) They only work with the "new" iPods, not the originals, and I don't think that they are available yet for the "mini" iPods that are harder than hell to get anyway.
(When we bought one for a gift last week (and going through the lengthy checkout process at the Apple Store here in Houston), at least a dozen people walked up wanting the mini version; all of them refused to consider the "big" one (which is just slightly larger than a thin pack of playing cards), even with its greater capacity and lesser cost. Go figure...)
2) Recording quality is way down there in quality with the Belkin version of the sound input device, the first one to be released. The mike is overly sensitive to percussive sounds (which boosts the drum part WAY above everything else), and there's a geometric "distance" effect, where stuff four feet away drops by the inverse square rule over that two feet away. Standard recording issues, to be sure, but you have to expect them with something not intended for recording more than voice memos in the first place.
3) I've not tried the newer recording module (just read a review of same this week, and saw one for sale at Fry's on Tuesday), due to my experience with the first one. It's made by Griffin Technology, and retails for about $40.00 (less than the Belkin). The review points out that the Griffin version also has an auxiliary mike jack in its little head, allowing the use of a far better microphone than is built into the device. From the experience that I've had with other Griffin products for the Mac, I would expect overall quality to be superior to the Belkin product. That's the review's opinion as well.
One thing of note was that there was no "wavering" effect when recording a clarinet. With some recording media (non-digital tape, for example), a steady tone from a clarinet will play back with fluctuations introduced by the tape drive system speed control. None of that with the iPod, even with the crappy Belkin mike.
4) I may be misremembering the documentation and background information that I've read on the iPod, but I recall distinctly seeing a discussion of a "rigid" partition between the musical side of the device (which would include any files recorded onto same through the music "system") and the hard drive side of the device. What I found with the Belkin device (which uses the same "internal to the iPod" functions as the Griffin) was that the files it created were not accessible from the iPod when using it as a "hard drive". In effect, the musical side of the iPod is invisible when it is used as a hard drive. As the voice files are recorded in the iPod music format, that would make them inaccessible as well. (I tried pretty hard to retrieve them, but it's been six months or so since I made the effort.)
- • -
The iPod is a great way to carry more music than you'll ever want to have in your pocket, and we are quite satisfied with the two that we have purchased to date (one for my 77 year old mother, who is planning on using it while walking her treadmill and while cutting her lawn). The huge capacity makes for days of uninterrupted listening (as long as the battery charge is kept up), and they're as trendy as hell for those to who(m) such things matter. (All three of my vocalists went out and bought one once they saw and experienced mine).
What I use "ours" for is not for walking about with Mozart (or The Village People) pumping into my head, but rather for a perfect ultra portable input device to play "interval music" into my sound system on band jobs. You can "custom arrange" playlists to pump just the right duration of pre-recorded tunes into the standard union break time, and start it all up with one simple button press. Fiddling with the CD or tape player took a lot longer, and the sound quality was not as good.
I really wish that it would have the capability to record like the mini-disk recorders, but (at this point, at least), it's just not there. Perhaps in the next iteration of the "operating system", full audio capabilities will be provided for audio-in, but for right now we are sticking with the mini-disk.
Other mini-disk recording hints:
Incidentally, my "field recording guy" now mixes the vocalist audio feeds from the main PA system into a _second_ mini-disk recorder (he's got far too much money for his own good), and then overlays that on the first recording (which uses a stereo mike to pick up the (non-amplified, for the most part) rest of the group. His first recording efforts, miking only the band which was in turn limited by the locations where he could spot the mike never really got the vocals right, as the front of house sound that they projected was always slightly in front of the microphone location. (We have a dance floor out front, so mike locations are always a problem.)
The ultimate solution to the miking problem that we have found is to fly the stereo microphone over the group from the back row of the trumpets on a "mike stand" made of a Fibre-glass shock corded tent pole. The ground end is set in a X shaped base made of 2" by 4" lumber, and the curve of the pole allow him to spot the mike at just the right spot over and in front of the group. The pole and base are painted flat black so it doesn't intrude visually, and getting the microphone isolated from ground vibration and impact is an added bonus. Rigging up the extension needed (over thirty feet from the mike to the recorder) was a bit of a burden, but the end result was worth the effort.
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Author: Sylvain
Date: 2004-07-29 15:20
Recording with a minidisc is great fun but has 2 major drawbacks:
1- your are limited to a shor amount of time
2- the signal is digitally compressed so it you will never have the audio quality of a CD or analog
The easiest way to do recording these days is with a computer and enough disk space.
However, in terms of price/quality/portability MDs are the current winner.
-S
--
Sylvain Bouix <sbouix@gmail.com>
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Author: John O'Janpa
Date: 2004-07-29 17:13
Hank,
The format is rewriteable. I buy a box of five at Bestbuy for about $15. Several brands are available. If you don't want to save the recording, you just record over them.
The 80 minute time is at the "best" recording quality. You can record a lot longer at other settings. 80 minutes is usually long enough.
I don't use mine for downloading hours of music and listening to it while I jog, so I have only familiarized myself with the functions I need to use it as a moderately high quality, very portable recording device. The teeny buttons that control myriads of functions are not much fun to use, so I don't. I only use it as a portable recorder on the 80 minute setting.
I wish I had been able to do as well with the 50lb. Teac reel to reel deck and stand mounted shure microphones I used to lug into lounges to record my friends rock and roll band in the 60s. Of course after about 10 beers the recordings didn't sound tooooo baaaad.
My microphone is probably a case of overkill. People stressed the importance of a good microphone, so I made sure I got one. The MS907 that I mentioned in the earlier thread is what our Wind Symphony director uses and he's quite satisfied with it. It's smaller and cheaper than my MS957.
I'll have to look into the Win NMD software that glin mentions, to get the things into the computer with less hassle.
And ... yes I built a Heathkit AR1500 receiver.
John
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Author: LeOpus1190s
Date: 2004-07-29 20:14
hank the first md player had issues with the laser and the second had issues with the headphone jack.
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Author: Terry Stibal
Date: 2004-07-29 21:40
I'd have to echo that as well. My son had two of the beasts early on, and both were defective in one way or another (long since forgotten). In his case, they were probably dropped too often; I'd buy him carrying cases, but he would insist on just carrying the recorder, which (being a slippery little thing) would be dragged out of the rear seat area of the van and impact on a parking lot.
The recorders that Jim (the guy that does our field recording) uses are Sharps and Sonys (I think). He has had defective ones from each maker, but once again I know not the specific problem.
As compact as they are and as alignment reliant that the read/write head on their recording systems have to be, it seems like they would be prime candidates for failure in that department.
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2004-07-29 21:47
In applications that require pre-recorded music, the iPod and a pair of amplified speakers seem to be sweeping the field, particularly where bits of music are needed one after the other.
At a workshop I went to recently, the dance instructor, who had used a boombox with a built in CD player last year, had all her music selections on an iPod -- 1/10 the size and weight of last year's setup. A lecturer who had juggled a dozen CDs of musical examples last year had them all pre-loaded on an iPod.
Terry Teachout, a wonderful arts critic whose blog I read religiously http://www.artsjournal.com/aboutlastnight/index.shtml, puts his day's listening on an iPod, which he uses even at home.
Best regards.
Ken Shaw
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Author: Gazebo Dealer
Date: 2004-07-29 21:48
IPOD= BAAAAD
If you want to record on an Mp3 player that records into a more universal format, get Dell's MP3 Jukebox. I could not be happier with the recording quality. Record as long as you want...I've done 10 hours on accident. It was almost like I recorded my entire day of school. It's a great deal at $199 for a 15 GB player. It has a built-in mic unlike the IPod...and you can take all of your recordings, put them back on your computer, and RENAME THEM...which is a great if you're making a solo recording...I am firmly behind the Dell Jukebox...an overall better deal than the Ipod...the 20 GB Jukebox only runs 50 bucks more. And it does .mp3, .wav, .wma, and many other different formats.
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Author: Terry Stibal
Date: 2004-07-30 03:43
Although it sounds as if you are having a great time with the Dell device, the marketplace is pretty much runaway iPod for those who are primarily interested in listening. The recording feature is nice though...I look to see real recording on the iPod in the near future but it ain't here yet.
And, I think that the big factor in the iPod's runaway success is the "coolness" of it all. The devices are a "display" item here in Houston, where you see people wandering shopping malls with the ostentatious headphones and little box in plain sight on belt or armband.
Personally, I'd prefer a toned down version, but that ain't gonna happen...
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Author: beejay
Date: 2004-07-30 21:55
John Scorgie asked about transferring vinyl records and tapes onto CDs. I highly recommend a program, available on the Internet, called Wave Corrector. It is easy to use, and keeps all the warmth of the original vinyls, while getting rid of as much surface noise as you wish.
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Author: PGJ
Date: 2004-08-02 15:42
For tons of info on Minidisc, mic´s, recording etc... try
www.minidisc.org
/per
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Author: Lorenzo
Date: 2004-08-04 01:39
There is also the PS-04 “palmtop studio” by Zoom Corp. It's a 4 track recorder / mixer with 10 possible takes per track. It's got a lot of bells and whistles designed for electric guitarists, but it seems to work well with acoustic instruments. It has a built in mike, and line-in so you could use an external mike. Records to a SmartMedia card and transfers easily to a computer, where you can turn the recording into a wave file. I use mine for recording band practice, or practice playing all parts of a duet, trios, quartets, etc. Costs about $200.
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2004-08-04 10:41
Hi All,
Much good advice on the topic. Thanks a great deal.
I do know that tranfering old LPs to disk is a task that I have planed for the coming months and I think using a mini-disc in some way be a part of this project. I suspect I'll get back to this great BB for additional advice on that topic once I get underway.
HRL
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