 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: S.W. Franklin
Date: 1999-02-21 02:14
I have an R-16 3/4 Buffet clarinet SN 22516, that was purchased new on November 11, 1942, from Carl Fisher, Inc. in Chicago. The clarinet is in like new condition and has been repadded. It plays beautifully. It is a Boehm system, 20 keys, 7 rings. Quoting from the sales literature, "This is the complete improved Boehm system clarinet and includes G# key, forked Eb-Bb, low Eb key and Eb-Ab lever. It is especially recommended for players who desire to use a single clarinet and transpose A clarinet scores." I have tried to locate a fingering chart for this clarinet. The clarinet was purchased by my parents when I was fourteen years old. The original case is in the same condition as the clarinet. I played this instrument in high school along with a Buesher 400 gold plated alto saxaphone. I put them away in Jan '45 where they remained in storage until three years ago when I had the clarinet repadded and recorked. The sax needed only the cork replaced on the neckpiece. I have two questions concerning these instruments. One - what is their respective dollar values, and two how can I find a fingering chart for the clarinet.
I would appreciate any help. Thanks.
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Author: Dee
Date: 1999-02-21 02:40
Please be aware that although this is most likely a pro grade clarinet (and no doubt an excellent one) based on the additional keys that you describe, it is NOT an R-13. The R-13 model did not come out until sometime in the 1950s (you can verify this on their web site if you wish). Also R-13 serial numbers are greater than 50,000.
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Author: Andy
Date: 1999-02-21 02:58
Ummm.... I think you might be able to find a fingering chart at... the Buffet web site maybe? or you could just e-mail one of the people that work there and have them find one (?), but I've never really hear of a 'R-16 3/4' I didn't think they went that high. the price value should be more that 1,000 dallors atleast if it's in as good condition as you say.
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 1999-02-21 03:04
Andy wrote:
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Ummm.... I think you might be able to find a fingering chart at... the Buffet web site maybe? or you could just e-mail one of the people that work there and have them find one (?), but I've never really hear of a 'R-16 3/4' I didn't think they went that high.
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There'll be no fingering chart at the Buffet site - Buffet (or any other manufacturer, at least to my knowledge_ does not provide instructions for playing.
The extra keys on most soprano clarinet are pretty easy to figure out just by looking at which key closes or opens what pad. Bass clarinets have a few more "tricks", and can be a bit harder to figure out what does what.
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Author: S.W. Franklin
Date: 1999-02-21 03:17
I am looking at Buffet literature from the 1940's. They show six Bb clarinets 1. Model R-13 17 keys, 6 rings; 2. Model R-13 1/2 18 feys,6 rings; 3.Model R-14 17 keys, 7 rings; 4. R-14 1/2 18 keys, 7 rings; 5. Model R-16 19 keys, 7 rings; 6. Model R-16 3/4 20 keys, 7 rings. I believe my
R-16 3/4 was made in 1936 or 1937. The keys are, I believe, nickel-silver. I just realized as I was looking at the topic line that I identified the clarinet as a Eb. This is wrong. It is a Bb clarinet.
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Author: Dee
Date: 1999-02-21 03:40
S.W. Franklin wrote:
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I am looking at Buffet literature from the 1940's. They show six Bb clarinets 1. Model R-13 17 keys, 6 rings; 2. Model R-13 1/2 18 feys,6 rings; 3.Model R-14 17 keys, 7 rings; 4. R-14 1/2 18 keys, 7 rings; 5. Model R-16 19 keys, 7 rings; 6. Model R-16 3/4 20 keys, 7 rings. I believe my
R-16 3/4 was made in 1936 or 1937. The keys are, I believe, nickel-silver. I just realized as I was looking at the topic line that I identified the clarinet as a Eb. This is wrong. It is a Bb clarinet.
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Visit the Buffet web site. It gives some of their history and the R-13 was NOT introduced until the 1950s.
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 1999-02-21 13:17
Dee wrote:
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S.W. Franklin wrote:
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I am looking at Buffet literature from the 1940's. They show six Bb clarinets 1. Model R-13 17 keys, 6 rings; 2. Model R-13 1/2 18 feys,6 rings; 3.Model R-14 17 keys, 7 rings; 4. R-14 1/2 18 keys, 7 rings; 5. Model R-16 19 keys, 7 rings; 6. Model R-16 3/4 20 keys, 7 rings. I believe my
R-16 3/4 was made in 1936 or 1937. The keys are, I believe, nickel-silver. I just realized as I was looking at the topic line that I identified the clarinet as a Eb. This is wrong. It is a Bb clarinet.
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Visit the Buffet web site. It gives some of their history and the R-13 was NOT introduced until the 1950s.
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1955. Also, you can identify the date your clarinet was manufactured via the serial number.
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Author: Dee
Date: 1999-02-21 13:33
You might try getting the fingering chart that comes with the complete Klose method book or the Rubank Advanced method book. These mention the fingerings that become available with the extra keys and also some fingerings that cannot be used due to the addition of these keys.
Also look into the Ridenour book on fingerings. While I haven't yet purchased a copy, I hear that it is very complete.
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 1999-02-21 13:35
Dee wrote:
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Also look into the Ridenour book on fingerings. While I haven't yet purchased a copy, I hear that it is very complete.
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I have Tom's book - he shows many alternate fingerings and specific recommendations for certain pieces, but I don't remember seeing any fingerings for full Boehm.
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Author: Lelia
Date: 1999-02-21 15:01
S.W. Franklin wrote:
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I am looking at Buffet literature from the 1940's. They show six Bb clarinets 1. Model R-13 17 keys, 6 rings; 2. Model R-13 1/2 18 feys,6 rings; 3.Model R-14 17 keys, 7 rings; 4. R-14 1/2 18 keys, 7 rings; 5. Model R-16 19 keys, 7 rings; 6. Model R-16 3/4 20 keys, 7 rings. I believe my
R-16 3/4 was made in 1936 or 1937. The keys are, I believe, nickel-silver. I just realized as I was looking at the topic line that I identified the clarinet as a Eb. This is wrong. It is a Bb clarinet.
Before we assume that S. W. Franklin is mistaken (especially since s/he has such good provinance on the instrument as its original owner), I'd be interested in knowing how s/he knows the date of this literature. What is it? Is it a sales catalog? Have you kept it along with the clarinet all this time, or did you come across the literature later? Is there a copyright date printed in it? Is there other information (such as a claim that the company has been doing business X number of years) that would help date the literature? The reason I ask is that if you look at the Buffet clarinet serial numbers available here on sneezy, there's a great deal of information missing on the earlier instruments. I have no idea what Buffet's record-keeping is like otherwise, but despite what the company says today, I wouldn't bet the house payment that there was never any R-13 before the current one that started in 1955. The more I look at old band instrument advertising, the less I think I know! Selmer, for instance, is on its way through the alphabet for the second time in naming pro models, and has used the "Bundy" brand name on both intermediate instruments (c.f. the 1932 Selmer sales catalog) and modern student instrumnets; while some other companies have recycled identical model names and even identical serial numbers more than once. The worst example I can think of is Martin, with at least three completely different "Committee" saxophones, separated chronologically by other models. Some of the last original Committees in 1927 have serial numbers identical to totally different saxes also called Committees that were made in 1951, for example. I'm not aware that anything this extreme happened at Buffet, but I'd like to know more about S. W. Franklin's company literature before I draw any conclusions.
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Author: Lelia
Date: 1999-02-21 15:19
S.W. Franklin wrote:
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I am looking at Buffet literature from the 1940's. They show six Bb clarinets 1. Model R-13 17 keys, 6 rings; 2. Model R-13 1/2 18 feys,6 rings; 3.Model R-14 17 keys, 7 rings; 4. R-14 1/2 18 keys, 7 rings; 5. Model R-16 19 keys, 7 rings; 6. Model R-16 3/4 20 keys, 7 rings. I believe my
R-16 3/4 was made in 1936 or 1937. The keys are, I believe, nickel-silver. I just realized as I was looking at the topic line that I identified the clarinet as a Eb. This is wrong. It is a Bb clarinet.
When I got off on that toot about model names, I forgot to mention *why* this topic interests me so much . . . . Last year, I bought a 1937 wooden Buffet clarinet. It has the G# and the forked Eb/Bb, which I like very much. It doesn't have the low Eb. It's far and away my best clarinet, so naturally I'm curious to know more about these instruments.
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 1999-02-21 15:20
Lelia wrote:
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The reason I ask is that if you look at the Buffet clarinet serial numbers available here on sneezy, there's a great deal of information missing on the earlier instruments. I have no idea what Buffet's record-keeping is like otherwise, but despite what the company says today, I wouldn't bet the house payment that there was never any R-13 before the current one that started in 1955.
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Lelia,
Robert Carree finished his design for the R-13 in 1954, and Buffet started producing them mid-1955 (according to R. Carree's notes). There is the possibility of production R-13 prototypes in 1954, but there is no possibility before that time.
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Author: S.W. Franklin
Date: 1999-02-21 16:10
I just went through the mail this morning and was surprised to read that some of you doubt the fact that I was reading from company literature. As a matter of fact, the literature I have is from the time the R-16 3/4 was purchased. The date I gave, November 11, 1942, was actually the date my father finished paying for the clarinet. The actual date of purchase was April 9, 1941 and cost $200.00 plus tax and interest, which brought the total to $255.93. I have the payment book here as I am writing this. The Buescher Super 400, Model B-7, Gold plated Alto Sax, SN 296145, was purchased December 14, 1942, and cost $425.00 (Finish K gold plated) plus $25.00 for the case. My father only paid $418.55, case included. I might add that the prices of the other five clarinets in the company literature are as follows: Model R-13 Master Bore Buffet is $150: the R-13 1/2 Master Bore Buffet is $150; the R-14 Master Bore Buffet is $165: the R-14 1/2 Master bore Buffet is $185: and the R-16 Master Bore Buffet is $195. Some other material from this literature includes the introduction of the Evette Clarinet, sponsered by Buffet, and made in theirt newly purchased factory in La-Couture-Boussey in the pronince of Eure, France. There is also an article about the Evette-Schaeffer clarinet that was manufactured in its entirety in the Buffet factory/ The beginning of the article states "Nearly fifty years ago, two of the world's greatest builders and creatoes of clarinets -- the Messrs. Evette and Schaeffer-- succeeded the original founders of the world's finist and greatest woodwind factory. It was due to the untiring efforts-- unsparing self denial--unrelenting search for perfection of these two great artist creators and designers, that much of the worldwide fame of the great Buffet factory, came into international repute. ..." Some of the artists pictures as using Buffet clarinets are Rudolph Dunbar - Europes Greatest Clarinetist; Pat Barbara with Rudy Vallee; Lilian Poenisch -Women's Symphony Orchestra, Chicago: and G. McDonald, R. Anderson, H. Koch, P. Bodley - with Griff Willams Orchestra, Edgewater Beach Hotel, Chicago. There are several more artists include, but I just wanted to name a few. I also have the original literature, copyrighted in 1942, from Buescher True Tone on the introduction of the Super 400 Saxaphones. I'm sorry that this is so long, but there are some of you who seem to doubt the truthfulness of what I stated about the six R clarinets.
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 1999-02-21 16:20
That is very interesting. R. Carree, the "father" of the modern R-13, only started working at Buffet around 1950. Francois Kloc, current head of Buffet Woodwinds in the US, has put down 1955 as the year of the design.
I will check with him on the nomenclature discrepancy. If in fact Buffet referred to R-13s before 1955, they were a significantly different R-13 from today. The current R-13s are polycylindrical - whcih was R. Carree's contribution to modern clarinets.
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Author: Doug
Date: 1999-02-22 01:52
You are just discovering what some of us older clarinetists
already knew...that Buffet called their top of the line
clarinet with simple Boehm system fingering an R-13 long
before the polycylindrical bore was introduced. Before the
"modern" R-13 was designed in the 50's, the "then" R-13 was
somewhat larger in bore, but an excellent instrument used
by many great clarinetists including Daniel Bonade and
Robert Marcellus. Somehow clarinetists have equated the
Carree polycylindrical R-13 with being the first of the
Buffet clarinets to be listed as R-13. Wrong. Buffet
did not even publicize the change of bore at the time, nor
did they, before that time or since, label the top of the
line instrument R-13 by marking it on the clarinet. The
whole situation has been confusing, certainly. To add more
gray to the whole picture, clarinet historian Lee Gibson
gives the date of the polycylindrical as 1950 (see p. 36 of
Gibson's book, CLARINET ACOUSTICS) and others say 50000
serial number or higher. 1950 and Buffet serial 50000, of
course, do not equate.
Nobody has yet addressed the use of the extra keys on the
full Boehm instrument Mr. Franklin has asked about: The 7th
ring (3rd ring front for left hand) is used in passages with repetition of the interval G (at the top of the staff)
to Bb, especially a tremolo between those two pitches. With
the 7th ring, G to Bb is played simply by lifting the second finger, L.H. creating a "forked" Bb. (Finger G above
the staff; lift second finger L.H. to create a Bb.)
Next, the "articulated G#" key. This is a standard key
on oboe and saxophone. It provides a perfect trill from
F# to G# at the top of the staff. Simply hold down the L.H. G# key with the little finger and trill middle finger
R.H. This is a great key in a passage involving G# and
any note which uses any combination of rings in the R.H.
(a particularly difficulty descending chromatic passage with
G# between each of the chromatic notes in the clarinet part
of Poulenc's Sextet for Piano and Woodwind Quintet becomes
so easy with the articulated G# key.)
Next, the left hand Ab/Eb key. This simply gives a L.H.
way to play these pitches. The R.H. Ab/Eb key is not duplicated on the plain Boehm, so this key allows more
freedom in fingering passages with consecutive little finger pitches. Example: plain Boehm instruments should be fingered L.H. C key to R.H. Eb key. With the extra lever,
that is still possible, but that interval may also be played R.H. C to L.H. Eb key.
The 4th and last key is used to extend the range of the
Bb instrument to Eb,a pitch enharmonic to the low E of the
A clarinet, thereby allowing, as Mr. Franklin has correctly
noted, the player to play the lowest pitch on the A clarinet
on the Bb instrument, when transposing A parts to Bb.
We all love the R13 instrument from the 50's to present,but players need to understand that there were some
beautiful clarinets made before that time by Buffet. And, Dee, just a comment to you...you have told us often how
much you care for your Leblanc Symphonie II...realize that
that was still the larger bore instrument very similar to
the pre-polycylindical Buffet. Leblanc did not start making smaller bored instruments essentially of the Buffet
polycylindrical type until Tom Ridenour began design changes for Leblanc.
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 1999-02-22 02:51
Doug wrote:
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To add more
gray to the whole picture, clarinet historian Lee Gibson
gives the date of the polycylindrical as 1950 (see p. 36 of
Gibson's book, CLARINET ACOUSTICS) and others say 50000
serial number or higher.
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Gibson is incorrect here if he's referring to Buffet's manufacturing of a polycylindrical R-13, since Carree only joined Buffet in 1950 or thereabouts. Buffet states emphatically that the polycylindrical bore R-13 dates from 1955.
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Author: Doug
Date: 1999-02-22 03:26
Mark, more quotation from the Gibson book on p. 36. "In
1949, Robert Carree, factory manager for Buffet Crampon
since 1938, found that if three ........" According to
the Gibson book, Carree was at Buffet factory long before
1950. This is not to start an argument, but Buffet has
changed ownership many times, it certainly is possible they
don't have all the information at hand.
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Author: Dee
Date: 1999-02-22 12:07
Doug wrote:
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.... We all love the R13 instrument from the 50's to present,but players need to understand that there were some
beautiful clarinets made before that time by Buffet.
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And I have always said that they did make fine instruments throughout their history. However, buyers may think that they are getting the polycylindrical bore design when in reality they are getting an older model. The older models are fine and play well. But if the buyer wants the polycylindrical horn of the 1950s and forward, he won't be getting it. He might end up very unhappy if he finds that what he bought has a "1940s R-13" has quite different characteristics than he expected.
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Author: Clarence Wilkinson
Date: 1999-02-23 01:14
Lelia mentions the Martin Committee Model saxes. I bought one of the original Committee Models in 1937. Bud Freeman headed the committee that designed it. This was while the big bands were the rage. I don't think Martin had a committee model before that.
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Author: Lelia
Date: 1999-02-23 12:50
Clarence Wilkinson wrote:
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Lelia mentions the Martin Committee Model saxes. I bought one of the original Committee Models in 1937. Bud Freeman headed the committee that designed it. This was while the big bands were the rage. I don't think Martin had a committee model before that.
That's what I thought, too, until I found out that my 1927 Martin tenor (which I bought thinking it might be a Handcraft) is an early Committee. The head-scratching over Martin sax models and SNs is worse than any confusion over Buffet clarinets and I wouldn't dare try to sort it all out, but see the "Martin Committee" thread.
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Author: S.W. Franklin
Date: 1999-02-23 15:43
I would like to thank "Doug" for the information on the fingering for the R-16 3/4 Bb clarinet. I did not realize what a commotion would be started by my initial message. All of the information I have been able to supply is from the circa 1941 Buffet literature. They refer to the bore as "Master Bore". I have no idea what this means. A question was asked if any other instruments were noted in the literature. The answer is yes. There are alto and bass clarinets, oboes and english horns, made not only by Buffet, but also by Evette and Schaeffer. The Buffet instruments are refered to as "Master Model".
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