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Author: Tara
Date: 2004-07-27 23:13
Number 23 of the Rose 32 (in Eb, andante con moto/adagio) the last note in measure 13 should be an F#?
It seems to be printed as an F# in all the editions I have, yet apparently my ears have deceived me, as I have foolishly played an F natural there for years...
Anyone care to confirm that indeed this is just a stupid mistake on my part?
Thanks!
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Author: EEBaum
Date: 2004-07-28 00:19
Whoa, funky.
Apparently, I have also always played an F natural there.
There's no courtesy natural in the next measure, which you might expect if that was an F# (though it doesn't *have* to be there). To me, it makes more musical sense as F natural. I worked on that etude for about a month with one of my teachers once and he never mentioned it being an F#. I'd assume it's a typo.
-Alex
www.mostlydifferent.com
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Author: Tara
Date: 2004-07-28 01:15
Thanks, Alex! I suppose this makes me feel better, but... still puzzling. I also have played this etude for a few teachers (people I respect!) and it never caught anyone's attention. Funny thing is, one of MY students noticed that it was actually written F sharp...
Any other thoughts??? Thanks, Tara
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Author: bill28099
Date: 2004-07-28 01:30
A great teacher gives you answers to questions
you don't even know you should ask.
Post Edited (2004-07-28 06:10)
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2004-07-28 01:46
bill28099 wrote:
> I play it as F natural because if you play an F# it sucks.
> However, I take great liberties with Rose and have changed many
> notes (and bars) because they didn't turn my crank.
Remember, they are ETUDES! They weren't made to be especially musical, but were made to teach and emphasize a certain technique. While changing them may make them more "satisfying" musically, the chances are very good that you're defeating their very purpose.
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Author: kdennyclarinet
Date: 2004-07-28 06:06
There are a few little things like that in the Rose etudes. In fact, in this particular etude, there is a mistake in measure 22. The last note of the measure is supposed to be F and not G. This correction was pointed out in the 32 Rose Studies an Analysis and Study Guide by Henry Larsen. While he points out the error in measure 22, there is no mention of the questionable F or F# in measure 13. However, I find it odd that in that same measure the Ab is marked in even though the key signature already indicates that Ab is to be played. It does not seem to serve a courtesy purpose considering there are no marked A-naturals previous to this Ab in the etude. Personally, I've always played F-natural in mm. 13. I just never caught myself missing the accidental. I've played that etude for two college professors during my studies, and neither one corrected me. I suppose it could be argued both ways (musically). Played as an F# (and ignoring the G grace note) there is a chromatic descent which really doesn't sound all that terrible as long as the emphasis remains on the first note of mm. 14. If played as an F-natural, it is a lovely anticipation of the first note of mm. 14 as the stress of the F is brought about even more with the G grace note.
While on the topic, etude #1 has an accidental issue in mm. 31 (the 32nd note measure). There is a C# accidental on the low C and then the clarion C is not marked either way. But, honestly, how many of us have really played a C# for the clarion C? The Larsen text marks in a courtesy natural sign. Also, in #13, mm. 54 is supposed to be all 8th notes and the turn in mm. 55 is inverted. Finally, in #21, the turn in mm. 21 is inverted and the turn in mm. 31 is used to express what was written out in mm. 3.
I wonder if we will ever know if these were "mistakes" made by the copyist or by the composer.
K. Denny
BME, MM, DMA
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Author: David Peacham
Date: 2004-07-28 09:52
The Carl Fischer edition, edited by Melvin Warner, has Fnat as the last note of bar 13. It also marks the superfluous Ab in the same bar. It shows the last note of bar 22 as Fnat, not G.
In etude 1, the clarion C in bar 31 is unmarked.
In etude 13, bar 54 has four quavers, then dotted-quaver semiquaver. The turn in bar 55 is up-and-down.
In etude 21, there is no turn in bar 21, nor in bar 31. There is a written-out turn in bar 32.
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If there are so many people on this board unwilling or unable to have a civil and balanced discussion about important issues, then I shan't bother to post here any more.
To the great relief of many of you, no doubt.
Post Edited (2004-07-28 09:53)
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Author: Shawn
Date: 2004-07-28 14:57
Tara-
My theory could be a little rusty, but I believe I can answer your question. Without any harmonies to give an exact answer, measure 13 can be analyzed two different ways both coming to the same conclusion with the note in question.
1. Beats one and two are from a V chord in c minor with the f# being a lower neighbor, and beats three and four would be your one chord in c minor.
2. (This is what I prefer to think) The entire measure is a minor one chord based on your c harmonic minor scale, still with the f# being just a lower neighbor.
So the f in beat four should absolutely be an f natural either way you look at it.
If you play your c harmonic minor scale a couple of times in that octave, and then play the measure in question, you can really hear the harmonic minor scale in that measure.
I hope this helps, and tell Andy I said hello.
-Shawn
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Author: Avie
Date: 2004-07-28 19:24
Because i am self taught i am probably unaware of the proper way to read some notes but the following is my understanding about some of the etudes mentioned in the Rose 32 by Carl Fisher version:
I always play an F# at the end of measure #13 of etude #23 because the previous F# in that measure is indicated and understood in musical notation that all the following accidentals in the same mm dosent have to be repeatably marked but should be understood (please correct me if im wrong). The next measure #14 would of course be a F natural. I personally dont like the F# as well as the F natural in mm #13 especially going into the #14th mm because it just sounds better to me.
I agree that in mm #22 the Ab is indicated in the key signature so it is redundant to repeat it at any time in the piece.
In etude #1, again i am assuming that the C# in the clarion register doesnt have to be indicated because it already is in the previous low C# in the same measure so it would be played as a C#. The etudes may not have been written to be especially musical and to be focused more on the technical difficulty but it would be less confusing to know what is actually meant. Also, I thought that an upside down turn means to start the turn above rather than below the prime note. Thanks. AV
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Author: Tara
Date: 2004-07-28 20:10
Hi, Shawn! Thanks for your affirmation- I knew wasn't going crazy. (Well, it helps that I know Chad never noticed when I'd played it for him!) I just needed some good evidence before corrupting my high school students.
For the record, do you agree that the last note of measure 22 should be an F instead of a G? This one seems more obvious to me.
I've been down to the DWS a few times, and I keep thinking maybe I'll see you in there...
Thanks for your thoughts! Andy says hey!
Tara
Post Edited (2004-07-28 20:39)
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Author: kdennyclarinet
Date: 2004-07-29 04:22
Avumba,
Yes, in music theory understanding, an accidental is in effect for the entire measure (unless marked otherwise). The issue we are discussing here is whether or not a mistake or oversight was made in the printing process, etc.
K. Denny
BME, MM, DMA
Post Edited (2004-07-29 19:38)
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Author: BobD
Date: 2004-07-29 13:40
David Hite's edition indicates the last note of measure 13 is an F#. He also points out that Rose was not a composer.
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Author: JessKateDD
Date: 2004-07-30 02:03
Etudes are indeed meant to emphasize certain techniques, but sometimes they rise to high art. At least that is how I feel when I play Chopin etudes or Bach's Well-Tempered Klavier on my piano. On the other hand, Rose does not affect me the same way.
That said, to return to the crux of the matter - it's an F natural. Just use your ears.
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