 The Clarinet BBoard
|
Author: Igloo Bob
Date: 2004-07-20 16:45
Reading through old threads, the common consensus seems to be that the R13 and R13 Prestige are almost the same instrument - different pads, an extra alternate button, and dencer and unstained wood are all that separate them (providing you get the silver key normal R13). So a curiosity - which of those prompted you to shell out the more than $1000 extra the Presige costs? If I remember some old reading, Mr. Charette is among the people who did so (I may be wrong, I read the thread where I believe that was mentioned more than a month ago). Is any of that really worth the huge increase in price? I've heard they sound almost exactly the same as well, which leads me to believe that the Prestige has no particular sound improvements as a result of the denser wood. That is of course, an assumption based on reading old threads. So was it one of those particular things that was worth the price increase, all of them combined, or did some of you just buy it because it was the most expensive model at the time?
Post Edited (2004-07-20 16:54)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Ralph G
Date: 2004-07-20 16:59
I didn't own a Prestige, but I did play on a loaner for about a year that was issued to me by a veteran's-type ceremonial band I play with (they got it as a hand-me-down from the military bands).
I liked it a lot, and I was very interested in either buying it or getting my own. But government-issue stuff is hard to buy privately, so I went looking on my own. In the end, I couldn't really justify the cost of a Prestige since I'm just an amateur. I ended up buying a used R-13 with silver keys for a lot less moola.
The Prestige's wood didn't look unstained to me, although the grain was maybe more visible in many spots than on a regular R-13. And I liked the silver keys. I never really had a use for the extra Eb lever (though I sometimes wish I still had it when I work on the MSND scherzo). The silver badge on the UJ is a nice touch, but it was missing on mine anyway. But the wood was quite dense, and it made for a sometimes prohibitively heavy instrument.
I was fortunate to find a very nice R-13 that pl ays (for me) even better than the Prestige. Bottom line is I just found a better horn for less money.
Anyway, hope you don't mind a tale from someone who DIDN'T buy one..
________________
Artistic talent is a gift from God and whoever discovers it in himself has a certain obligation: to know that he cannot waste this talent, but must develop it.
- Pope John Paul II
Post Edited (2004-07-20 17:11)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Brandon
Date: 2004-07-20 22:59
I currently play on a set of Prestige. As Ralph said, the wood is a bit denser, resulting in an ever so slight heavier clarinet. I play these instruments because that is what my teacher told me to play. I guess that is kind of the same thing as paying someone to find you a good set as was mentioned in another post. So what prompted me to buy these horns? The fact that I had that much trust in my teacher. Do I like the silver keys though? Yes. Do I like the pads...don't know. If memory serves, they have been brannenized and do not have the original pads anyway. Extra key? Sure why not. Deep down I like the Prestige because it has more resistance.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Igloo Bob
Date: 2004-07-21 00:12
Ralph G - If you could find a Prestige that has exactly the same sound characteristics as the R13 you like, would you spend the extra >$1000 for that Prestige?
Brandon - So looking back, would you say that getting the Prestige over the standard was worth the extra money, regardless of the reasons you did it?
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Brandon
Date: 2004-07-21 00:28
Bob- I would certainly say that playing the Prestige is worth the extra cost. Albeit, any time you find a good instrument it is worth the extra money, regardless of brand. I would still rate the Prestige over the R13, but it is all in the eyes of the beholder, as we all have different needs for our instruments.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Ralph G
Date: 2004-07-21 04:10
Bob,
The wife and I are moving forward buying a new house now, so no, I definitely wouldn't spend the extra grand.
But if I could actually afford to... probably not. I've become so enamored with my R-13 that I can see how the "nicer" features on the Prestige don't really get my Irish going. One poster who had a Prestige once said here when she took it overseas to play in an international ensemble, the horn was a real conversation piece with some of her fellow players. So maybe the Prestige can help you win some friends, but I'd rather save the extra $1,000 and win some friends the old fashioned way -- you know, with hookers and booze.
But I won't say never -- if I found a Prestige that made me sound like Marcellus and Manasse and could also weedwhack my yard, then maybe
________________
Artistic talent is a gift from God and whoever discovers it in himself has a certain obligation: to know that he cannot waste this talent, but must develop it.
- Pope John Paul II
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: LeOpus1190s
Date: 2004-07-22 08:18
Personally, I don't care for the Eb Key and when I owned an Opus I had the key taken off. So that takes care of the Eb Key benifit in my eyes.
When I bought my Bb clarinet for IMS I tried a bunch of R-13's and Prestige R-13's. In that stack, the best clarinet for me that day was a R-13 Silver. I went to the store in mind to buy a prestige might I add. The extra stuff they do doesn't mean they are superior to the regular R-13.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: florizell
Date: 2004-07-28 08:45
Last year when i was buying a new Bb i tried both the r13 and the prestige, i also took along my old plakky one to see how much of a difference in tone quality there really was.
I tried about 3 prestiges and 8 r13s and nearly all the prestiges sound as bad as if not worse then my plakky! Thats not too good.
So as you can guess i stuck with an R13, why the hell pay A$6300 for something that sounds soo ****?!
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: William
Date: 2004-07-28 14:24
I have played on regular Boehm system clarinets all my life, and am currently using a great set of LeBlanc Concertos--which I bought because they were much cheaper than the Opus (and seemed to play better). But now, since I purchased a Buffet Prestige bass clarinet and am getting used to using that "extra" Eb key, I do wish that I could enjoy the same advantage on my other clarinets as well. My recomendation is for anyone considering the purchase of a new clarinet, that they purchase a model with the extra key, wheither it be R13, Opus, or "whatever". While anything technically is possible without the alternative Eb/Ab, it certainly makes some passages much easier.
And for that matter, when is someone going to develop a "bis" key mechanizm--ala all saxohones--for the clarinet that will allow an easier Bb/Eb? Maybe someone already has--if so, please provide info............
FYI--For me, the "add on" one available from Runyon just did not work well, so I "donated" it to an Aussie clarinetist student friend of this board.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: clarnibass
Date: 2004-07-28 18:45
i have a prestige r13 Bb bought a few years now. beofre that i had a r13. when i went to buy a new clarinet i tried about 5 prestige r13 and 5 r13 clarinets. it might have been chance but all the prestiges were better than all the r13s. intonation was the same, mehcanism was the same (maybe a slight advantage to the regular r13s), the prestiges were slightly more resistant, but the sound was much better on the prestiges, so i went with a prestige. if i look back, i think i didn't try enough clarinets.
Post Edited (2004-07-29 04:20)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: ethan81
Date: 2005-07-12 22:14
For those of you who bought an R13 Prestige over an R13, there is a difference between those clarinets; specifically, in addition to the extra Eb/Ab key, the Prestige uses "premium unstained grenadilla", while the R13 is made from "high quality stained grenadilla" (according to the Buffet website). I know pros who prefer the r13 sound to that of the unstained wood, and vice versa.
The more relevant question would be: "For those of you who bought an R13 Prestige, why did you select it over the Festival?" The Festival and R13 Prestige are made from identical material with identical features. According to a Buffet rep in North America, the development of the Festival was bought on by the fear of large music retailers runing niche shops out of business. Buffet made the Festival - exactly the same as the R13 prestige - available only to smaller dealers at prices significanly lower than the prestige to give them the ability to compete with bigger stores that could afford smaller margins/lower prices. As the threat of big music chains taking over subsided, the Festival was opened up to the majority of dealers.
With the prestige selling for over $1000 more than the festival, the reason why the prestiges continue to sell seems a mystery.
If anyone has any information to counter what I've heard, I'd be very interested, but barring that, I'd recommend the Festival to anyone who wants the R13 Prestige sound.
Post Edited (2005-07-12 22:21)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: hans
Date: 2005-07-12 22:22
ethan81
Re: "why the prestiges continue to sell".... perhaps it's a case of conspicuous consumption.
Regards,
Hans
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Tyler
Date: 2005-07-12 23:34
Wow ethan81, if all of that is true than I've been re-interested in a Festival...
-Tyler
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Gandalfe
Date: 2005-07-13 01:27
I purchased my wife a Buffet R-13 Festival (95?) for $1600 yesterday for our 30th wedding anniversary. It doesn't have both barrels like the new ones that sell for $2600 now-a-days. But it has an excellent sound and she liked the key works. Prestige clarinets are nice but we really couldn't see any difference between them and a festival model.
She tried it out for two weeks and I even had our tech tweak some of the ring heights and action. He was a professional clarinet player who played a Buffet R-13 and he really liked this clarinet. He said the price was phenomenal. Also, and I don't think anyone mentioned this yet, the prestige and festival have metal tenons. The festival also has gortex pads which the tech thinks might be a clever pad idea.
I look at the purchase this way. I could have bought Suzy some more jewelry or a newer car, but I love playing duets with her and working on our community band music together. So she gets something that she really likes but would never ask for and I get to make her happy. :o)
Jim and Suzy
Pacifica Big Band
Seattle, Washington
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Clarinetgirl06
Date: 2005-07-13 03:03
"With the prestige selling for over $1000 more than the festival, the reason why the prestiges continue to sell seems a mystery."
If I remember right, the Eb lever on the Festival was very hard for me to reach, while the Eb lever on the Prestige was in a better position for me.
I love the tone of the Prestige and Festival better than the R13. When I tried out all of the Buffet models, I liked the R13 Prestige the best out of all of them, but it was too expensive for me so I didn't buy it. I would have, but I didn't have enough money. I would get a Festival, but the Eb lever is too short. Anyone else in this predicament?
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: ethan81
Date: 2005-07-13 21:53
Hey Carrie,
Seeing this thread (and your post) got me interested enough to check out a local music store's stock of clarinets. Fortunately for me, they had just received new Bb Buffets in the Festival, R13 Prestige, and Tosca models. I and one of the salespeople checked out the Festival and the Prestige, and they look identical. The Eb levers on both seemed exactly the same length. Perhaps a setup was to blame for the difference you found, or it could be that one of the instruments you tried was made just before (or after) a slight change in keywork by Buffet.
Post Edited (2005-07-13 21:53)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Aussie Nick
Date: 2005-07-14 00:42
ethan81 - "The Festival and R13 Prestige are made from identical material with identical features."
Actually from what I have read in the past, the Festival's register tube is placed higher than the R13, more like that of the RC which to my knowledge is designed to improve intonation. Also, I don't know the exact specifications but I was sure the Festival was 'based' on the R13 bore, but not identical - I used to own a pair of Festivals which were good instruments (in fact I regret ever getting rid of them...) and every Festival I have ever played/tried has to me had different tonal characterisics to the R13 Prestige. I have always found the R13 Prestige to be edgy (thin) sounding with a lack of colour and eveness... The Festivals I have played have always had a rounder, less piercing sound... but this is coming from someone who has always preferred RC's to R13's so perhaps I am biast But the point is, the Festivals are NOT exactly the same as the R13 Prestige.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Tyler
Date: 2005-07-14 17:09
The Festival is sounding better and better with every addition to this thread...
-Tyler
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Clarinetgirl06
Date: 2005-07-14 20:04
Cool Ethan81. I only got to try 1 Festival at Brook Mays and that was a few months ago and it was the display one, so maybe it was older and the Eb lever was slightly different. Or maybe, both models Eb levers are the same and my memory is faulty! But, I do love the tone of the Festival and the Prestige. I want one.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2005-07-14 20:16
I have a set of Prestige R-13's that I bought back in 1988 at Weiner Music in NY. I tried over 50 Clarinets to pick out those 2 and they were the best ones that I tried. Price was no object either way as that wasn't a consideration - only their feel and sound. I went with another Clarinetist and some of the final testing was done "behind the curtain".
It took all day and we took several breaks to get sane again.
I found that they had a heavier sound than the regular R-13's I tried. I don't like the Eb lever and never need to use it so that's a non issue.
Worth the money if you can afford it and find good ones. Other Prestige owners have tried my set and were jealous - they are that good. I did spend about another $1000 total for Jacobi to customise them after I bought em.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Wayne Thompson
Date: 2005-07-15 06:41
Some of all this has been said before, but it doesn't hurt to go over it again. I guess the bottom line is the old adage to just play a lot of clarinets before you choose. If you get confused and can't tell the difference, relax and pick a well made one that works for you.
Aussie Nick is right about the Festival being slightly different from the R13. To my eye the Festival register tube is about 2-3 mm higher. I was lucky enough to go to Buffet and pick my Bb Festival from 3 Festivals and 3 R13's. I had hoped to tell the difference strongly, but eventually probably went with my gut. I like the horn i picked. I spoke with Francoise Kloc that day and among other things he said that the Festival had more undercut toneholes and was more 'flexible'. He said the the "Festival used the Prestige wood. This wood is not 'better' but it is denser." He may have said then that the denser wood produces a d___ sound or more compact sound or something like that. He did stress that the differences are there for us individuals to find what we like, of course.
Ethan81's explanation of why the Festival was made is the one I have always heard. It makes sense, that Buffet would make a horn for those small retailers different enough to say it was different, but similar enough that they wouldn't really hurt the sales for those not going to the small music stores. I have also heard (here perhaps) that some of the small changes in the Festival were experiments that got folded into the Tosca. To me, this is speculation.
I think the Eb key got changed a few years ago, on both the Festival and the Prestige. I have a 3 year old Fest Bb and the Eb key is more svelte, shaped similar to the B and C# keys below it, and is offset about 9mm down from the C#. It's pivot is external to the B and C# keys. I have a Fest A that I just got on Ebay, I think about 12 years old, and its Eb is shaped more like the right index finger trill keys, and it is about 13mm from the C#. It pivots between the C# and B keys. Buffet was passing out a "Clarinet" brochure at the Jan NAMM show that I think is pretty new, but the pictures in if are of varying ages, if I'm right that there was a key design change. All the Prestige and Festival photos show the Eb key that I described on my A above. There is one photo labeled "The Eb lever R13" that shows the Eb style key as it is on my Bb.
I like the Eb key. I might wish my two clarinets had the exact same design, but, oh well. If I had the same design, I would choose a distance of 11 mm, halfway between the two that I have.
Here's my biggest contribution to this thread:
Maybe there is more hand finishing done to the Prestige than to either the non-Prestige R13 or the Festival, and that helps explain the $1000. The only people that could answer that question, beside Buffet, are the technicians that see many, many new horns of all thee kinds. Has anyone ever asked the Brannens or other experienced technicians this question?
Wayne Thompson
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Clarinetgirl06
Date: 2005-07-15 19:56
"I think about 12 years old, and its Eb is shaped more like the right index finger trill keys, and it is about 13mm from the C#. "
That's the kind I tried on the Festival. I couldn't reach it.
I can reach the Prestige model one though.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Ken Mills
Date: 2005-07-15 22:40
Dear William; You made me think of this piece I already wrote. I thought of you because you concerns has problems that I ran into. Read the message from whoever, titled "The Third Ring" something on the front of the upper joint. Do the biz it, Ken
Author: Ken Mills (---.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net)
Date: 2005-06-11 23:40
Dear Youall and Pete Fountain: Instead of the left hand forked fingering to get the Bb (clarion note on top of the staff like the sax or flute system, in my system) I like to use a biz key like the sax. But then its main vent on the front of the horn will sound quite a bit sharp because that vent is supposed to be accompanied by the closure of the right hand first finger in the 1-and-1 fingering for that note. Then I found out that when the sliver key tonehole is filled (this is where we have three holes opposite each other in the bore, making it look pretty rough) that it will make the note in the area's other vents go flat, just what we need as a correction! Almost. Watchout for the side trill key to get that note too, you might need a needle file to raise its pitch. I know: Just build a new clarinet. So I cannot use the 1-and-1 anymore (like the Germans), but I do not like too many holes in the clarinet (as well as the one added by the forked mechanism). I have a reference from Scientific American that the instrument will sound better with no holes, but then you could not change notes. Too much tradition against me, Mr. Science
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Brenda Siewert
Date: 2005-07-16 17:37
I bought an R-13 Prestige in 1997 that was hand-selected for me at the factory in Paris. I was playing a Leblanc L7 that I had had for a while and had play-tested a batch of R-13s at my dealer that were not great. I wanted the "Buffet" sound and wanted the best. I thought I was getting the best money could buy at that time.
I sold it later on because I bought a new Leblanc Opus that sounded better and wasn't quite as "stuffy" as I found the Prestige. I later sold that and now play a Buffet R-13 that is quite wonderful and have just this week purchased another quite wonderful Buffet R-13 Greenline for outdoor stuff.
I'm sticking with the standard Buffet R-13 because I didn't find the Prestige that much better and I could reach the extra key anyway.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
The Clarinet Pages
|
 |
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
