 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: D Dow
Date: 2004-07-19 16:43
Has anyone tried the new B40 Lyre from Vandoren out there? Just when you thought design would stop Vandoren have come up with something...
David Dow
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2004-07-19 16:58
Yep, just when sales start to flatten out they have to rename something --- that's called "marketing" where I come from......
Under how many names and model numbers, for instance, has Leblanc marketed the same old soprano and bass clarinet designs over the last half-century?
David, how many B40s do you have to try out before you get a good one? Be honest, now!
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Author: D Dow
Date: 2004-07-19 18:47
Not too many comparing prices with hand made stuff! At least Vandoren does something different compared to most individual hand makers in the US?
And David S...What is it a rename of?...
as to design have you personally examined the specifications which may be quite different from the current dimensions of the average hand made US mouthpiece?
Are you so jaded as to think the clarinet world is dead to innovation!
David Dow
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Author: D Dow
Date: 2004-07-19 18:58
I will also back up my thesis"
Most clarinet mouthpiece manufacturers and makers in the US are either copying a Kapar facicing or a Chedeville design in terms of bore and rails as well as tip..
there are few if any people out there doing anything really different except tried and true.
This is fine but,
at least Vandoren is approaching product design in a different way.
In fact, at least they have the guts to go with different bore design and rail designs...
as to the B40 these are very well designed mouthpieces..so well in fact many major players on both sides of the pond use the B40 13 or the M30 model...you have to argue against players like Johnathan Cohler and Jon Manasse who is a Vandoren M30 rep and player. These players are also monsters in the chops and sound department.
I was simply asking a question and did not expect a silly answer. Principals in the Met, London Symphony, etc. use Vandoren pieces and I mean M30s and B40s which are recent designs. This is more than an edorsement...this means these people feel they sound and play best on Vandoren pieces...
As to makers in the US people like Grabner and Hite are among leaders in their field in terms of trying to get a product that is totally there own...Herb Blayman made super pieces for years and yet few people really appreciated the super design work that went into his blank style.
David Dow
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2004-07-19 19:03
And so, Mr. Dow, since you have undoubtedly read all of Vandoren's marketing literature as well as taken your own measurements which you have compared to those of other mouthpieces: what is new and special about the B40 Lyre? How is it 'innovative'?
Please forgive my skepticism, but having played and refaced many HUNDREDS of mouthpieces over the last 10+ years, I've found that those that play the best (to me and nearly all my customers, anyway) have a generally similar configuration of tip opening, facing length, and facing curve. Not to say that "one size fits all" by any means --- only that, as in so many physical designs, after all the new approaches have been tried and tested we frequently return to an old, tried-and-true design that just seems to work best overall. For example, look at commercial aircraft: With all the innovation attempted in the last half-century, observe how the very most modern jets are still, in basic configuration, identical to the early jetliners of the 1950s. Automobiles, too. The clarinet itself has not changed in basic design since the 1920s or thereabouts. So please, how is this new Vandoren different? And with all the difficulties in making identical copies (of mouthpieces, much less reeds) please explain how Vandoren will make every new B40 Lyre, or at least a high percentage, just like the one you apparently played and liked so much? The fundamental problem with mouthpieces, hand-made or mass-produced, is not DESIGN --- we KNOW what a good mouthpiece facing and interior should look like --- the problem is REPRODUCIBILITY. Has Vandoren (well-known for their 'consistent' reeds, right?) licked this problem?
I apologize if this sounds like a personal attack -- it certainly isn't nor is it meant to sound hostile -- I'm just very wary of zealous conversions to the latest gadget from whatever 'manufacturer du jour' is currently in the public favor.
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Author: Sylvain
Date: 2004-07-19 19:03
I'm with D.Dow on this one.
Although, I think a good hand made mouthpiece with an understanding refacer goes a long way. I like the fact that Vandoren is always coming up with a new model. Their motivation is certainly to make more money but the customer has a new mouthpiece to try.
The last few additions M13, M14, M15 and M30 were each of radically different designs and although I think the M14 has been dropped, both M13 and M15 are quite successful and I think the M30 is doing OK too.
A couple years ago I tried a lot of their mouthpieces, B40, B45, B45dot, 11.6, 5RV, 5RVLyre, M13, M13Lyre and M15. And each one of them has a very different feel.
As for consistency. I settled on an M15 after trying just 3 and they were all quite close. At $60 it's hard to compete with. Try a blind test with a Chadash-Hill or a Greg Smith and tell me if it's easy to justify paying an extra $200 (or more).
-S
--
Sylvain Bouix <sbouix@gmail.com>
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Author: D Dow
Date: 2004-07-19 19:18
At to marketing Vandoren can certainly afford it...as to who they market to it is not just the USA...the world contains alot of people and Vandoren does great sales throughout Japan and China and the EEC(European Economic Union).
As to design they also make great mouthpieces for Oehler and Wurlitzer clarinets which also are very popular among freinds of mine in Germany and Austria. I seem to recall the conversation is about whether or not anyone has tried one.
As to my own expertise I have played thousands of concerts in orchestras of all types on 3 continents and in spite of this still have positive things to say about certain Vandoren pieces. The M15 and M30 are very popular as well as the B40 and B40 Lyre. Some players may not like them, but some people don't like good weather either.
David Dow
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2004-07-19 19:26
I don't understand why, but popularity and quality don't necessarily go together. The Selmer C* bass clarinet mouthpiece has been popular for many years in the US, but I don't believe I've found one in ten that played well without a major refacing. Ford sold MILLIONS of Pinto automobiles here, too, lets not forget......If Vandorens are popular in so many places, it may simply mean that their marketing and distribution are superb, independent of their products (which may arguably be adequate at best). And of course price is a big factor. I'll be the first to admit that Vandoren mouthpieces look very nicely finished and seem to be made of very good material, and their price is quite favorable especially compared to most of the hand-finished brands. But still, I have to reface nearly every one I get in order for them to play well.
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Author: larryb
Date: 2004-07-19 19:47
the Yankees are doing well this year, despite losing a couple to Detroit this weekend.
I'd say that Vandoren is the Yankees of mouthpiece manufacturing
but watch out for those Mets!
...and whatever went wrong with Beckham and his England mates in Portugal? Way to go Greece!
(just trying to reflect the international nature of this bb)
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Author: beejay
Date: 2004-07-20 06:50
Major correction on a non-clarinet point. The EEC has not existed for many years. It has been subsumed into the European Union of which yours truly, thanks to our new constitution, is a citizen.
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Author: graham
Date: 2004-07-20 12:36
Larryb: What went wrong with Beckham and England in Portugal is that the referee blew his whistle when no foul had been committed. Happily, neither MC nor GBK has blown the whistle on this thread (yet).
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Author: jmsa
Date: 2004-07-20 13:26
When it comes to any type of clarinet mouthpiece, I proclaim:
WALTER GRABNER FOR PRESIDENT!
jmsa
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Author: OpusII
Date: 2004-07-20 14:50
I did try the new Vandoren B40 Lyre, But I have to say...it deserved a Vandoren stamp, great sound and control....
But personally I didn't like it, it just wasn’t my playing style…
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Author: D Dow
Date: 2004-07-20 18:47
Finally, someone has responded that they actually played on the B40 Lyre...
my original post read
Has anyone tried the new B40 Lyre from Vandoren out there? Just when you thought design would stop Vandoren have come up with something...
David Dow
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Author: Hiroshi
Date: 2004-07-20 22:56
My guess.
Look at the tip shape. Most provably it will be a sharper round than old B40.
Vandoren changed their reed tip shape and in a reasonable course they have to develope seriese of mouthpieces to match their changed reeds.
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Author: Ed
Date: 2004-07-20 23:56
Recently I had the opportunity to try an M13, M15, M13 lyre, and M30. While each was a bit different, all had good qualities, all played well and I could probably perform on each (although likely with slightly different reeds to match the individual mouthpiece.) I personally find the playability to be very good with Vandorens and know many people who perform on them. They may vary slightly, but some players like the feel of one, someone else likes another.
While I personally generally prefer hand finished mouthpieces by some of the fine craftsmen out there, I have colleagues who are excellent players who prefer Vandoren. A couple of these players have expressed to me that they find the price very attractive, like the fact that they are generally very playable, reed friendly, readily available and you can find some real gems out there. Some players i know have gone from $200+ hand made mouthpieces to Vandorens and tell me that they are happier. As they say, your mileage may vary.
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Author: OpusII
Date: 2004-07-21 07:28
Quote:
Finally, someone has responded that they actually played on the B40 Lyre...
my original post read
Has anyone tried the new B40 Lyre from Vandoren out there? Just when you thought design would stop Vandoren have come up with something...
David L. Dow
I don’t find it strange that nobody else did reply that they tried the mouthpiece…because I don’t believe that it is sold jet in our country (The Netherlands).. So perhaps it isn’t sold in your country? I had a opportunity to try it because Eddy Vanoosthuyse did have one of the first models with him at a master class.
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Author: BobD
Date: 2004-07-21 12:51
Many clarinetists will buy almlost anything marketed as "new" or "improved" if they think it will improve their playing.....even VanDoren mouthpieces despite their confusing designation system. They can't even spell liar correctly.
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Author: D Dow
Date: 2004-07-21 17:49
I would not certainly buy anything as new or improved unless in my own playing of it proved itself to be an improvement. All I simply wanted was to know what players of it who tried it felt about it...the fact of the matter is it may be a fine piece for students who cannot afford an expensive hand made mouthpiece.
As to myself I DOUBT really it would be something I personally would use...but there are a number of students I teach who may find it something that really may improve their playing or help in the area of sound production.
I still use my old Hite mouthpieces faithfully...only in concert band do I tend to resort to my B40s.
David Dow
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Author: BobD
Date: 2004-07-21 19:07
After trying many I settled on a 5RVLyre until I discovered the Pyne Polycrystal which I currently use.
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Author: oxfeely
Date: 2004-10-04 06:50
I'd like to revive this thread in the hope that we'll get some evaluations from prople who have actually tried this mouthpiece. It's been available for quite a few months, and judging by it being sold out from time to time at various mail-order companies, I assume that somebody out there must be playing them or at least have tried them.
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Author: sinkdraiN
Date: 2004-10-04 13:12
I'm having success with a Morgan mouthpiece. However, I always enjoyed the tone of the B40. The B40 Lyre is definately a mouthpiece I would like to try when it is available. I always get a chuckle when I read posts from people who think mass produced mouthpieces are made by the devil. I play a custom mouthpiece and I certainly do not dismiss the fine qualities of the Vandoren line.
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Author: larryb
Date: 2004-10-04 14:32
I was reading this thread looking for some serious insight into mouthpiece design and qualities, when suddenly I came to my old post and realized I had been through this once before
Suddenly, the internet makes sense to me
Yankees clinched during the debate, by the way.
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2004-10-04 15:03
David Spiegelthal wrote: "I don't understand why, but popularity and quality don't necessarily go together. The Selmer C* bass clarinet mouthpiece has been popular for many years in the US, but I don't believe I've found one in ten that played well without a major refacing."
I recently tried a few brands of mouthpieces including the Selmer C* for bass clarinet, and it was one of the better mouthpieces. I don't mean to sound harsh, but the Selmer C* I've tried and Vandoren B45 I have are better (for me) than the Pomarico Crystal refaced by you (David Spiegelthal) I have.
"And of course price is a big factor."
Some of the worst mouthpieces I have tried were the VERY expensive Bay and Pyne mouthpieces. Selmer and even Vandoren mouthpieces were by far better.
Post Edited (2004-10-05 14:02)
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Author: larryb
Date: 2004-10-21 14:15
thought I'd resurect this post to reflect on Bob Schwab's question (fourth post)
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Author: hans
Date: 2004-10-21 22:01
I bought one of these at Clarinetfest because it made a great first impression. After playing it a few months, I have gone back to my 5RV.
Hans
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Author: Todd W.
Date: 2004-10-21 22:31
hans --
What were your first impressions and why did you go back to the 5RV?
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Author: hans
Date: 2004-10-21 23:11
Todd,
I had brought along a 5RV and a Selmer C85/120 to the 'Fest for comparison. At that time the B40 Lyre seemed to play with less effort, especially in the altissimo register. Lately it had not felt that way but the 5RV plays very consistently for me.
Regards,
Hans
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