 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Igloo Bob
Date: 2004-07-12 03:51
If I'm looking to go into music education for sure (not as a second plan in case being a performance major falls through or anything like that), how much an issue is the prestige of the college I went to going to be when I'm looking to be hired? My two choices right now are the University of Alaska Anchorage, and West Texas A&M. I know that I can be accepted to both. However, West Texas (WT) is significantly more expensive than Alaska (UAA), for many reasons. The tuition for WT is a bit more, and going to WT would cost me a load of extra money in that I have no relatives immediately close to there, while I have direct family and a place to live if I go to UAA. My problem is, I have two sides of the family telling me different things (my parents are divorced). My mother (who lives in Alaska) says that while what college you went to might matter just a bit in certain places, a degree is a degree. My step-mother (who lives with my father in Texas, though not close enough to WT to let me live with them) says that prestige is a huge issue, and people are more willing to hire someone who went to a big name college than some "podunk" college that no one's heard of. This is especially concerning with the realization that many people think of Alaska and think of igloos, villages, and Balto, and might take a college in Alaska even less seriously than a small college elsewhere (though UAA is about average-sized). Can anyone give any thoughts on this? While I respect the opinions of both, they're directly conflicting, and neither went to college! (and my father and step-father both took the military route). So I have basically 2 sides telling me opposing things (father and step-mother saying prestige matters, mother and step-father saying that it doesn't). Obviously, both sides have a somewhat vested interest in where I go, and I'm not sure that either side is detached enough to give me a realistic opinion, nor knowledgeable enough in music affairs to be correct even if they were concentrating on being completely truthful.
So knowing that, and knowing that there are many people who visit this board who either are or have been music educators (or are in college to be so), as well as professionals in other music areas, I thought maybe you guys could point me in the right direction? Basically, I just want an answer as to how much prestige of college is going to matter, though any other info you feel that might help me, I would certainly accept with a glad heart also.
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Author: pewd
Date: 2004-07-12 05:40
where do you want to teach? in alaska or texas or elsewhere?
what do you want to teach - band? privately? orchestra? what level- middle school, high school, college?
sure prestige matters to a point - depends on what you want to do - give us some more info about what you want to do career wise
if, for example, you want to be a band director in texas, you'd probably have a better bet by getting a degree from one of the music schools here- which comes with a teaching certificate good in this state. if you went to a school in alaska, then looked for a job here, you'd have a tough time - do they even have marching bands in alaska? lol - so tell us a bit more about what you want to do , and you'll get a ton of opinions on this board...
and using the band director example again, you should compare the number of teaching openings in texas vs alaska. e.g, do you have any idea of where you want to work after you graduate? or are you going to apply all over the country?
- Paul Dods
Dallas, Texas
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Author: EEBaum
Date: 2004-07-12 05:44
A lot of getting a job can depend on who you know, so, like Paul suggests, it's a good idea to get a degree somewhere near where you want to teach.
-Alex
www.mostlydifferent.com
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Author: Igloo Bob
Date: 2004-07-12 07:11
Public school band director is what I'm aiming for. I don't mind so much where (a job's a job!) though teaching positions in Alaska come open rarely. Preferably, a job teaching middle school/junior high or high school would be ideal. Though with how seriously band is taken in Texas, New Mexico, and several other states, I can imagine that head band director would be something you'd have to work your way up to.
Nope, no marching band in Alaska! Unfortunately. Though I and several others who moved here from the lower 48 in the past couple of years are looking to start one at our high school. If not, there's always ice-skating band.
Out of curiosity, will the university name matter to those not close to either state? Say... Pennsylvania, perhaps? I'm guessing WT is going to be a bigger name than UAA regardless of where I do, just because of the A&M name. On a anecdote of sorts, my Clarinet private lessons instructor in Junior High graduated from Eastern New Mexico University (which I'm guessing doesn't rank too high on a lot of "prestige" lists) and shortly afterwards got a job directing bands in Pennsylvania. How common is this? Is band directing a fairly glutted market? I'd imagine the ratio between job-holders to job-less (in terms of music jobs) won't be quite so high as with music performance majors, but is it still fairly competitive? Should I be looking to bring more to the table than just a degree in music education?
Post Edited (2004-07-12 07:17)
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2004-07-12 10:51
Lance,
Check out this link
http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/read.html?f=1&i=148302&t=148292
As far as the progression through the ranks, mine went like this: assistant in a medium-sized school (Talmadge HS: enrollment 900); assistant in a very large school (Springfield TWP HS: enrollment 1400); head in a medium-sized school (Huron HS: enrollment 900); and then head in a very large school (Toledo Whitmer HS: enrollment 3,000). All of these jobs were in Ohio (which takes its band music seriously); this part of my professional journey took 16 years, I finished my masters degree, and got tenure in the last two school districts. I know a lot of people that start in one school district and go all the way thorugh to retirement; I have a bit more of a wanderlust, I think.
I had several years as a part-time college director along the way as well as several years as a band director in the US Army earlier on. I knew a lot of people as I was always teaching privately as well as always working lots of gigs (I was able to accept calls on all the woodwinds, all styles). With the private teaching in several music stores, the grapevine was always a terrific source of information on school openings/firings/changes.
Here is a terrific link to a great number of college band programs.
http://camb.ucdavis.edu/camb/college.html
HRL
PS I am now a somewhat retired college professor in an entirely different field and am enjoying my 41st year of teaching; tenure at three different universities. Go figger!
Post Edited (2004-07-12 12:44)
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Author: BobD
Date: 2004-07-12 13:37
The thought of a marching band in Alaska gave me my morning laff....thanks Iggy
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Author: Camanda
Date: 2004-07-12 13:43
I don't know about any other area, but jobs in Rhode Island are practically nil. There's been a collapse of arts programs here, and it's spreading like wildfire -- Cranston, Providence, and I think Newport have killed it off. I shudder to think of how that's going in other states, though it's a fact that Ohio (as Hank said) takes band music much more seriously than RI does, which emphasizes its sports teams. Unfortunate for my school (Coventry HS) because our sports teams are awful, except track and field.
Part of the reason I'd rather go out of state than stick to RI is because there aren't any jobs, so licensure to teach here is about as good as Monopoly money. 3 of the 5 schools I'm applying to are in other parts of New England. You definitely have to check out the job market where you want to apply for school for that reason, and if you can, find a projection of job openings for after graduation, too.
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Author: BobD
Date: 2004-07-12 14:22
"a job's a job!)" If and when you do apply for one you might want to deep six that concept.....I won't even mention the comment that killed one applicant's consideration here recently....but it was along those lines.
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2004-07-12 14:56
Lance,
BobD is absolutley right about the "a job's a job" frame of mind. Right from the start of the application process to a final interview, you need to make it clear that this particular position is the greatest job you could even have and you'll be satisfied with it for a long time.
I approached being a band director like being an athletic coach; every job I had I would strive to make the band the very best in the history of the school, in the area, or better yet, in the eyes of the community. I never expected to leave and move up but every opportunity that was better and I moved up, I never burnt a bridge. I always got strong recommenations from my superintendents as well.
Oh, be ready to be called on to teach elementary vocal music, high school choir (I took the HS choir at one school to the first superior ever earned in vocal music - what an experience that one was), or even beginning strings. All in a day's work but each area is well covered in a strong music education curriculum; you'll also need good keyboard skills.
I had some really great times teaching HS band!!!!!
HRL
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Author: DevilStick
Date: 2004-07-12 15:50
Where you want to teach is probably going to be a big factor in where you should go to school. Licensure requirements to teach in Texas are different from say North Carolina(some states may want you to take extra tests and/or classes to get certified to teach if you have an out-of-state license). And go where the jobs are! I agree that it is a big help to get to know some of those influential people who can give great references.
Those who expect to be ignorant and free, in a state of civilization, expect what never was and never will be. - Thomas Jefferson
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Author: Igloo Bob
Date: 2004-07-13 04:54
Thanks for the insight and info, all. Have not checked any links provided yet, will do so shortly. So basically, what I'm looking for is a solid music program that's going to let me teach at a wide variety of areas? I don't have any one place that I'd absolutely want to teach at, really. I'm guessing that the kind of music programs that give you the general ability to meet teaching requirements in a large variety of areas are going to (for the most part) be the more expensive colleges?
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Author: pewd
Date: 2004-07-13 05:35
I'd echo devils comment that you should probably look into a general geographical location , before you select where to go to school. look at what parts of the country are growing, which ones are shrinking. the district i teach in is in the fastest growing city in the country- we're building schools as fast as we can pour concrete foundations.
if you're going to teach in an area where marching is important, then you should attend a school with a strong marching program - you'll need to know how to design shows, integrate drum lines, color guards, drill teams, flag corps etc into the total 'marching experience'. i'd suspect that would make it difficult to teach here in texas if you get a degree in alaska.
locally, most of the band directors attended the better known schools in this and adjacent states - texas christian (ft worth), university of north texas, texas tech, howard payne (brownwood tx), univerisity of houston, texas tech (lubbock), university of oklahoma, steven f. austin (nacodoches).
a few of the directors i know attended small, out of the way, unknown schools. for the most part, they worked their way up by starting out in smaller districts (we have some amazingly small towns and school discticts in this state). someone mentioned you might have to teach choir, or elementary music when you're starting out - make sure whatever school you pick prepares you for this.
some of the schools i listed are expensive private schools. some are state univeristies, some large, some small. some pricey, some not so expensive. all have top notch, outstanding music ed programs however. and there are dozens if not hundreds of oustanding schools around the country. i dont have any hard facts , but i'd suspect its far easier to get into that first interview if you have a degree from a school that has a known reputation in the area you're applying. it doesnt have to be 'megga huge state u' but it should be one with a repuation for a solid music ed. program.
to sum it up, figure out where you want to work, then find a school with a excellent, well respected music ed program. that doesnt necessarily equate to 'expensive'.
the texas school you mentioned - WT - is that West Texas A&M in Canyon, TX? i dont see a music ed degree listed on their web site- i see performance, music therapy, and composition its been 30 years since i visited that school, so i dont really know much about it. but i think you want to look for a school with a bme degree with instrumental or band concentration?
hope thats helpful to you.
regards,
pewd
- Paul Dods
Dallas, Texas
Post Edited (2004-07-13 06:14)
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Author: Igloo Bob
Date: 2004-07-13 07:44
Quote:
the texas school you mentioned - WT - is that West Texas A&M in Canyon, TX? i dont see a music ed degree listed on their web site- i see performance, music therapy, and composition its been 30 years since i visited that school, so i dont really know much about it. but i think you want to look for a school with a bme degree with instrumental or band concentration?
Wow. You're right. I just re-checked the website, and... no music education major in sight. Well, now I feel rather foolish. I checked the website of my other college choice (the Alaskan one) and knew that it offered music education as a major, but went on the word of friends that music ed was offered at WT (which yes, is West Texas A&M), as they were planning on majoring in the same thing at the same college. This may require further investigation, perhaps it might've been left out of the website, or perhaps used to be offered and no longer is? I dunno. This is definitely something to call people up there about. If they don't offer music education, I may have to go find some more colleges to be interested in.
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Author: William Hughes ★2017
Date: 2004-07-13 16:47
Our son will enroll next month as a music education "pre-major" at Marian College in Indianapolis, Indiana. It is a small, Catholic school, well thought of but not on anyone's "prestige" list. In our hometown, we have a state school (Ball State University) with a highly regarded music department and a soon-to-be-opened, state-of-the-art music building to complement an already impressive set of facilities. Furthermore, Marian doesn't march, Ball State does. Why choose Marian? Because our son felt it was right for him. He liked the people, he liked the campus, he felt more comfortable with the values and educational philosophy. Selecting a college or university is no dry exercise. Visit the places, meet the people and try to picture yourself as a part of that community. And best of luck however you decide.
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Author: Ralph G
Date: 2004-07-13 20:11
Though the topic is music education which is apparently unavailable there, I'll give a personal recommendation for the clarinet prof at West Texas A&M, Doug Storey. He was my instructor at Texas A&I in Kingsville (now Texas A&M-Kingsville) during my year as a music major, and I learned quite a lot from him. Could've learned even more if I wasn't 19 and dumb back then.
Youth is wasted on the young...
ƒ
________________
Artistic talent is a gift from God and whoever discovers it in himself has a certain obligation: to know that he cannot waste this talent, but must develop it.
- Pope John Paul II
Post Edited (2004-07-13 20:18)
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Author: pewd
Date: 2004-07-14 04:31
i'd call the folks at west texas a&m and ask, maybe arrange a visit.
and your 'foolish' comment - no way. you're asking questions, researching, thats precisely what you should be doing.
i'd also check out texas tech down the road a piece in lubbuck. their music ed program is outstanding.
- Paul Dods
Dallas, Texas
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Author: Igloo Bob
Date: 2004-07-15 09:03
*repeats thanks to all* I'll definitely be calling them at least, and my dad had previously arranged a visit to WT, which I think I'll go on anyway. Perhaps even if music ed isn't offered, I can still find something close enough to it to keep my interest.
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2004-07-15 14:58
Lance,
Your comment "I can still find something close enough to it to keep my interest." is not IMHO the way to approach the topic. If you want music education, consider schools that have an established program and track record.
Why try to patch together a WT program when there are schools that are already offering a complete package. I'm not sure you are furthering your end game.
HRL
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Author: JMcAulay
Date: 2004-07-15 17:05
Bob, although many states have consistent requirements to be a teacher, some states are different. My public school teaching eperience was all in California, so that's all I can reasonably discuss. California has more teachers than any other state and has the highest level of requirements to become a teacher. Such as a full year of additional study after getting a bachelor's degree (which can be in any subject other than education).
Furthermore, to get a job as a public-school teacher in California, it should not make one hoot where you got your bachelor's degree so long as it is a regionally accredited institution. I have never heard any teaching applicant mention that the interviewing committee fawned and swooned because of the name of a college. I even suspect that would be considered inappropriate, as it would be over and above the state requirements. In reality, of course, all other factors being equal (which thery never are), an applicant with a degree from the Principal's Alma Mater may look better than a competitor who graduated from Jerkwater Tech.
Certainly, if you wish to become a private teacher, the name of a highly-respected institution can draw more students. For a college setting, it may make a real difference. But for public schools, I think it will mean rarely more than 0.1% of the considerations given to who will get the job.
I've posted before that California offers supplemental certificates for teaching introductory (ninth-grade level) courses. A music teacher who has taken the additional courses needed to be armed with the added ability to teach, say, science classes will appear much more attractive to a school district. Plus, almost every school district in California offers higher pay to those teachers who have taken additional classes up to a Master's degree.
Regards,
John
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Author: Igloo Bob
Date: 2004-07-15 23:11
Mr. Lehrer, you're probably right. I had been wanting to hold on to WT in some form or another to make my father happy - he's been giving me the "since we're divorced and you live with your mom, I feel as though I've missed out on your childhood" line lately, and I must admit that it's made me feel a bit guilty. But I agree, unless they just forgot to write music education as one of their major when they do indeed offer it (unlikely), WT is probably not an option for me. I will definitely give them a call to straighten things out for sure, but without music ed as a major, I won't bother applying.
John, your post raises an interesting question for me - you said that in your experience, there's unlikely to be a situation where the college you came from is "not good enough", so long as it meets certain requirements, but then you discussed the other end as well (your school being much too acclaimed so that it becomes a negative point towards you). While I neither the funds to attend such a school or the ability on any instrument to get a full-ride there, that does make me curious. I remember reading on this board about a Violinist who applied for Oberlin, and he was so good that they didn't accept him - they knew that he was good enough to get into an even higher-ranked music school, and promising him a slot would take one away from someone not quite as good as him, when he wouldn't take the slot anyway. I wonder if that happens (I would think it happens very rarely, if at all) in the real world with teaching spots?
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Author: Igloo Bob
Date: 2004-07-16 06:35
This just learned - just talked to a Clarinet-playing friend, who apparantly knows several people who are currently at WT majoring in Music Education.
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Author: JMcAulay
Date: 2004-07-16 18:33
Bob, I just deleted a six-paragraph expansion on your comments and my earlier ones. It may have been getting too specific to interest many of those reading the board.
Contact me by email if you'd care for any further discussions.
Regards,
John
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Author: allencole
Date: 2004-07-17 22:04
In my area, it's less a matter of prestige than of the old boys network. The college which currently enjoys the most favor is a very good one, and I have been generally impressed with the graduates that I've seen in action. In fact, several systems have alumni band directors watching their alma mater for particularly outstanding candidates.
I also believe that many of these college students are groomed for schools of their own by participating as assistants during August marching band training at area high schools.
Apart from this rear entrance into the system, I not sure that the particular college matters much in the evaluation of the individual candidate.
Allen Cole
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Author: Igloo Bob
Date: 2004-07-18 14:56
Just re-checked under Education, found it, thanks EEBaum. WT is back on the possibility list, then. A curiosity - the Alaska college doesn't offer music education, but "Music - Music Education Emphasis". Is there likely to be a significant difference?
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Author: Francesca
Date: 2004-07-19 07:10
The way music ed degrees are given varies by school. For example, my degree will be a BA in music, with an emphasis in education and clarinet performance (double major). The school of education will then award me a teaching certificate separately when I have completed all the necessary paperwork. That is only how my college does things, however.
As to picking a college, don't be too concerned with where to go as an undergraduate. You'll find that the school district is looking at the skills you possess, not the name on the sheet of paper. Schools in the immediate area of a given university may take local graduates simply because of familiarity. Other than that, I've never experienced (nor have my other ed-majoring friends) a situation where our school affiliation affected getting a job.
As to choosing the school, I beg you not to limit your choices simply because of cost. I turned down 2 full rides to local universities. I chose to go out of state because I liked another university more. It was a better fit. $20K in debt later, I'm still comfortable with my decision. Loans are offered for a reason. Invest in your own education. You owe it to yourself to pursue the greatest opportunities possible. Good luck with the college search. Feel free to email me if you'd like to discuss these issues further.
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