 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: LeOpus1190s
Date: 2004-07-03 19:18
I am just curious if anyone know which orchestra's were going to have auditions coming up this year and for next.
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Author: Terry Stibal
Date: 2004-07-03 22:51
One very easy way to keep up on this is to join the American Federation Of Musicians (AFM). The national monthly newsletter/paper, the American Musician, has a current listing of all of the symphonic and military openings, along with the criteria for each (for the most part).
Membership costs in the neighborhood of $120.00 a year for national and local dues.
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Author: bill28099
Date: 2004-07-04 00:48
If you can live cheap here is one.
http://www.spokanesymphony.org/upload/auditions/clarinet_ii_audition_rep._8-04.pdf
A great teacher gives you answers to questions
you don't even know you should ask.
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Author: GBK
Date: 2004-07-04 04:09
South Bend Symphony Orchestra - Principal Clarinet
contact:
Marty Heirty
Director of Operations
South Bend Symphony Orchestra
120 West LaSalle - Suite 404 South Bend
South Bend
Indiana 46601
operations@southbendsymphony.com
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Acadiana Symphony Orchestra - Principal Clarinet
http://www.acadianasymphony.org/
auditions@acadianasymphony.org
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Orchestra London - Second Clarinet
contact:
Sasha Gorbasew
Artistic Administrator
Orchestra London Canada
520 Wellington St.
London ON N6A 3R1
Tel.: (519) 679-8558 ex. 229
http://www.orchestralondon.ca/
...GBK
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Author: GBK
Date: 2004-07-04 16:15
by the way - A few high profile jobs for other orchestral instruments have been posted:
San Francisco Symphony - Associate Principal Oboe
New York Philharmonic - 2nd Bassoon
Chicago Symphony Orchestra - Principal Trumpet
Minnesota Orchestra - Principal Tuba
Boston Symphony Orchestra - 2nd Violin
Boston Symphony Orchestra - Section Cello
Houston Symphony - Principal Cello
and for those willing to travel:
Berlin Philharmonic Orchestra - Clarinet 2 (Bass Clarinet/Basset Horn)
...GBK
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Author: Terry Stibal
Date: 2004-07-04 16:39
"If you can live cheap here is one."
Truer words were never spoken. American Musician's listings usually carry the annual or per service/number of services wage, and both confirm my decision many years ago to forget music as a primary career. Four to six years of college for even the best of musicians returns a marginal middle class existence, where you constantly have to perform, gig, and teach to keep your head above water.
I employ some of these guys in my group, and while I admire their dedication, I wonder at their choice of lifestyle at times.
It may be great to do what you like for a living, but it's a lot more realistic to make a living in a field in which you have a reasonable chance of landing a job, and then do what you like in your spare time. It's icing on the cake when you can make money at it as well...
There was a second bassoon opening for a second or third tier orchestra a few years back that attracted no less than sixty odd candidates. What are the numbers for clarinet players in these cases? AFM reports a lot on the openings, but virtually nothing on the actual real-world process itself.
Speaking of auditions, back when Bally owned the Six Flags chain of amusement parks, they used to salt the auditions for the instrumental music. All of the candidates would assemble in the theater, and then the first "candidate" (who was actually a pro already in their employ). He would rip into his "audition piece", something like Variations on The Carnival of Venice, and immediately half of the seats would empty out. Sorta like the deposit that orchestras require to make sure they're getting professional talent.
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Author: GBK
Date: 2004-07-04 16:52
Terry Stibal wrote:
> Four to six years of college for
> even the best of musicians returns a marginal middle class
> existence, where you constantly have to perform, gig, and teach
> to keep your head above water.
I've said it before, and I'll say it again:
Each year (just in this country alone), conservatories and universities graduate hundreds of clarinetists whose playing ability borders on the unbelieveable.
The sad fact is that most will never earn a dime by strictly just playing "classical" clarinet.
When you are young, the notion of being a "professional clarinetist" sounds noble and intriguing.
However, after a few years, when your friends have moved on and bought their own homes, have retirement plans in place, have disposable income, medical benefits, and treat themselves to the better things in life, the "professional clarinetist" monicker loses its luster very quickly.
A struggling musician is not a pretty sight...GBK
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Author: Katrina
Date: 2004-07-04 23:16
Ahhhh...GBK...truer words were never spoken.
With the help of a part-time (health benefit providing even!) day job, and lots of students, I can play some classical clarinet sometimes and even some Balkan clarinet too...
Gotta start working on a retirement plan though...
I don't think I really want an orchestral job anymore, but apparently both the Eb and Bass jobs with the Minnesota Orchestra will be available this fall. Haven't seen anything official yet, but "I know people who know." Since I just got an eefer, the idea _has_ crossed my mind to audition, but I don't know if it's something that will happen or not...
Katrina
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Author: Claire
Date: 2004-07-05 05:14
"It may be great to do what you like for a living, but it's a lot more realistic to make a living in a field in which you have a reasonable chance of landing a job, and then do what you like in your spare time. It's icing on the cake when you can make money at it as well..."
Is it unrealistic to dream of one day having a job with the NY Phil? Should we all just give up our dreams of doing what we want full time? Or should we do something that we hate doing just to enjoy our short retirement years?Katrina wrote:
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Author: LeWhite
Date: 2004-07-05 07:10
I can see both sides here.
I love music and the clarinet, and it's great to strive towards a career in it, but I've also learned a valuable lesson from my father.
He started his own business MANY years ago, and today it's bigger, stronger, and more profitable than ever. He's also an absoloutely phenommenal guitarist. I asked him a few years ago why he isn't a professional musician, and he told me that he wants to be happy, live a comfortable life and that includes retirement. I didn't understand; I thought it was a waste of big talent.
But now that I approach the end of college and will soon have my undergraduate degree in music, I understand exactly how he feels and indeed, I wish the same for myself.
Luckily, we always have 'the future' and you never know what you might stumble across or end up doing! I believe some are just meant to be professional musicians, and you can tell the ones who are going to 'make it' when you meet them and hear them play. It's a really tough thing to look inside yourself and admit "I'm not going to make it" but it's worth it, because then you can plan for the future.
I guess to me the 'noble option' is the one that's going to lead you down the happiest path.
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Author: Igloo Bob
Date: 2004-07-05 08:17
I remember someone on this board saying that music education is usually a fallback plan for many students looking to become a professional musician. I suppose when you take that inward look at yourself that LeWhite described, music education is always there! Not the best paying job, but I'm told it's one of the most rewarding.
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Author: bkmorton
Date: 2004-07-05 11:19
Unfortunately, there are too many music educators that do not put 100% into teaching because it was there secondary job. Many teachers are bitter and hold a chip on their shoulders for not being able to play professionally. I hope everyone realizes that not all people can teach so PLEASE do not consider it a second choice job. Playing clarinet as a profession involves personal perfection AND teaching is a strictly selfLESS activity and involves MUCH more patience.
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Author: ken
Date: 2004-07-05 17:44
Terry wrote: "Four to six years of college for even the best of musicians returns a marginal middle class existence, where you constantly have to perform, gig and teach [to keep your head above water]."
--That's what one would strive to do anyway except with the goal of constantly improving and maturing as a musician then coincidently becoming famous and rich ... I don't see the diff? If only in it for the money people with that outlook are in the wrong business. I'm a firm believer, musical excellence is about a life-long pursuit of art and craft not making your first million then kicking your feet up on the desk and lighting a cigar .... that's why there's rock stars and then there's musicians. v/r Ken
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Author: Terry Stibal
Date: 2004-07-06 04:03
Well, I have to disagree with this. As wonderful as a career in music may be, your first and foremost obligation to yourself and your family. Being able to feed, shelter (and in most venues, transport) yourself (and your kith and kin) comes first, followed then by gratification. And, like it or not, a full time professional music career is just not the way to do this, at least not for 99.99999% of us who want something more than a hand to mouth existence.
Let's run the numbers just for clarinet and bass clarinet players. Figure one hundred symphonic operations (a high estimate, but a fair one considering the numbers of locations (down to the size of Newark, NJ) that "could" support one) that would host some clarinet slots. Figure four for each (again, a high figure). That's four hundred clarinet slots in the performance end of things. Double it to account for studio work, etc. (again, probably a bit on the high side). Ballpark figure here is that we've got some eight hundred to a thousand "performance" slots nationwide, even though many of them cannot be considered to earn a living wage by themselves.
Now look at the schools. North Texas turns out a dozen or so performance majors per year (the last time that I checked, which was very long ago to be sure). How many music programs are in the same league? Let's say twenty or thirty or so. Let's figure a couple hundred or so performance majors walking across the stage each year.
I submit that a universe containing (at the top end) some one thousand jobs or so is not going to have an annual retirement rate of 20%. So, the surplus has to go somewhere else.
What to do? Well, in some ways this situations is roughly analogous to that of college athletes, save only that they often get a full boat ride to attend a specific college. Hundreds and hundreds of them "work" their way through a college career, only to find that their talents are in very limited demand in the "professional sports" world.
The one big difference between the musicians and that athletes is that the note and rest crowd attend a very specialized curriculum that is of limited utility outside of their specific field. The athletes can, if they apply themselves, obtain a degree in some field other than round ball pounding, all while playing the sport that they love.
(As an aside, basketball has always creeped me out, ever since being dragged to St. Louis Hawks games as a very young man. Something about smelly men in satin pants just rubs me the wrong way. Perhaps my mother's affection for NBA action in the 1950's pushed me towards hockey, where I still play a couple of times a week to this day...)
No such luck for the clarinet performance major. Tracked into a limited curriculum from the sophomore year on, they are very well prepared for one thing alone, and it's one that is in very limited demand once they leave the confines of the university/conservatory. Once they see the light, it's either under employment or time to go back and get a degree in something a bit more marketable.
I've known several "professional grade" string players who still, some twenty years after college, are working at drudge jobs since their "degree" doesn't really qualify them for too much else. Too many good players chasing too few slots...the old supply and demand rule in action.
One other thing:
You can play clarinet as much as you'd like on the side. Mozart (or Mueller, to keep it more on topic) never once darkened the door of an institute of higher learning, and they did just fine. True, you'll never be accepted by a "major" organization (without all of the required ticket punches, that is), but you'll still be a damn'd good clarinet player. And, learn to play sax and the double reeds and flute and you'll make some pretty good money in the process.
But, this is always like talking to a big, empty auditorium...
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Author: Ron Jr.
Date: 2004-07-06 18:03
Terry,
If this were a Crumhorn bulletin board and someone asked about majoring in Crumhorn Performance, we would all chuckle quietly and say: "Ah the dreams of the young." But again. without dreamers, where would this world be?
Ron Jr.
Post Edited (2006-03-06 18:06)
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Author: Igloo Bob
Date: 2004-07-06 19:09
And indeed, expanding on Ron's last statement a bit, _someone_ has to fill those 1000-ish Clarinet slots. If you know you're that good, why not go for it? People like GBK are proof that at least a few of us can "live the dream".
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Author: Terry Stibal
Date: 2004-07-06 20:14
Stipulating wealthy parents is sort of begging the question, for one in the position of wealth doesn't really need a career in the first place. Something to occupy the time between coupon clipping sessions, perhaps?
You guys probably play the lottery as well. Me, I'm too objective to hang my life's career on a dream and a one in a thousand chance, no matter how good my clarinet playing skills were (or are, for that matter).
I thought briefly of going both the music route and through the astronomy route when pondering all of this back in the 1960's. My district's music director advised me against the clarinet route, citing all of the reasons I have offered and pointing out that I could still have a good time playing on the side. As for the astronomy option, one look at what those with doctorates in various aspects of astronomy did for a living (and how much they earned in the process) was enough to put me off it for all time.
Probably a good career path to take for those still insistent on trying to make it in musical performance would be through one of our various military organizations. This would be much like the college basketball player, as you would be perfecting your skills while being paid (albeit E-6 pay; not a lot but still respectable when you consider the other allowances offered), and you could attend advanced studies while doing so. It's not as "professional" as some might want it to be, but it is playing music for a living and making a fair wage in the process.
I note with amusement that current Marine Band members are excused recruit training. I also wonder if the USA and USMC have looked at those clusters of bandsmen and thought "H'mm, here's another couple of hundred we can convert to MPs to help with the situation in Iraq". Seeing what has been done with other units (whole brigades of armor and infantry have been or are being retrained as constabulary (military police) for the Iraq situation), I would worry if I was a bandsman at this point.
Along those lines, I was (for two days) on the strength of the 4th Infantry Division band over in RVN. My first unit (1/69th Armor) had been "redeployed" as part of the downsizing process in 1970, and I had friends in high places who were wrangling me a "easy" duty slot.
The band, like many other rear area units, was full of "redirected" combat occupational specialty (MOS) people. My close friend SGT Gregorsak, who was (like me) officially an infantryman by training but a defacto trumpet player in early 1970, suggested that I'd have a lot more fun with the band.
However, I saw all of the buildup in the divisional supply and transportation depots and decided that something was brewing, so I got myself redirected to our other divisional armored unit (1/10th Cavalry (Armored)). My logic was that, if I had to be in a combat unit, better to be riding than walking.
Three weeks later, I sat atop my new ride (tank 16, First Platoon, Troop A, 1/10th) by the main highway through the Central Highlands and watched the main infantry strength of the division being trucked over to participate and support the Cambodian invasion. People like SGT Gregorsak (who still retained their infantry MOS, as did I), were stripped out of their cushy back area jobs to bring the grunt battalions up to strength prior to the operation. I, already in a combat unit, was passed over by the chooser of the slain...
Somewhere in that is a lesson. I know that it did get my clarinet an additional trip around the world. (I'd had it sent when the "join the band" idea was first broached. It rode out the rest of my tour in a 40 mm ammunition can welded to the back of my turret's bustle rack, none the worse for wear despite the heat and humidity.)
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Author: LeOpus1190s
Date: 2004-07-07 07:48
Wow.. Simple question always, and I mean ALWAYS tends to be twisted into something much more. Thanks GBK for answering my question simply.
As for this ranting about there being so many clarinet majors turning out every year and very few jobs. The question is more of how many truely amazing clarinet players are being turned out. Big schools can turn out dozens of students and just becuase they have degrees doesn't mean they are any good.
this idea that there are ratios of 100 clarientists graduating to the one job opening a year presents the wrong idea that there are a hundred equal clarinetists trying out for these jobs. Simply put, there a lot of people who are majoring in music who really shouldn't be.
I hear all these people who say "I know hundreds and hundreds of clarinet players who would be fantastic in the new york phil". The fact is that there really isn't. Maybe it requires a level of perception to realize that infact very few clarinetist are job worthy at all. A lot more people love to play the clarinet than are really truely good at it. And these people know it, we all know in our heart of hearts if we are good enough or not good enough to keep on going. Quite honestly, I don't feel bad for people who aren't getting jobs if it has been clear all the way through that they should have chosen a different path.
I know a few college students now that are going to get jobs in the future and i mean i know, just like twenty years ago when people knew certain students that are now accomplished orchestra clarinetists have jobs.
Ill say it again, lets just face it. Most aren't people are not good enough to get jobs. For anyone else, quit gripping about it and just play because you love it.
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Author: Terry Stibal
Date: 2004-07-07 17:22
I don't see it as twisted at all. You are simply stating the same thing in a different way.
You can "reach for the stars", just as thousands of others who "go to Hollywood" to make it big "in motion pictures" do all of the time. The trouble is that the world is full of "starlet" material, and there's only a very limited amount of room at the top. Fail to make the cut and you better have a sound backup plan in place.
Back in the days of my youth, I "knew" that one Stephen Hartmann was going to go places, even from his performance in high school. I expected that he would go forward into a music track, and he has. (It took him a while to see the error of his key clacking, LeBlanc playing ways, but we all grow over the years...) Nothing too shabby about playing for the New York Opera (or whatever they call it these post-Bubbles days).
I also saw an equally talented Bob Bauman playing alongside of Steve for the same period of time. (We were all in the All-County Band for three or four year; the All-County Orchestra (of which I was a bassoon/bass clarinet playing part), did not interest either of them, the Philistines.) Bob too went the music route (Michigan and Stubbins, etc.) , but he's only teaching school, not backing up the girls and guys in tights. Underemployed? Perhaps, but it's what he originally wanted to do, and there are a lot of education jobs out there for the right people.
Me? I've literally never had a single course in music beyond high school. Been in the union a long time, work a lot on the side (and a lot more back when I was young). I enjoy controlling how much I have to do with music (inventing (US Patent 4,796,507), teaching, performing, and now leading a twenty-two piece group, a hard item to sell without excellent quality, I assure you). When they can get me into the office for real work these days (off sick, with a hairline fracture of one of my thigh bones), I have a rewarding career, _plus_ I get all of the clarinet and sax time that I want in the bargain with reembursement for most of same.
Do I regret what I've done? Not for one minute. Am I better off than if I followed in the footsteps of Steve and Bob (and bear in mind that I was the bass clarinet equivalent of those two worthies in our salad days)? Most certainly. Would I have tolerated the scraping by existence that I think both had at one point or another in their lives? Certainly not. Do I have more hair on top of my head than Bob and Steve combined? Well, hell yes, but I digress.
We've all known those who have gone on in music with the idea that they're going to become the next Stanley Drucker, only to spend five or six years time (and seventy to a hundred thousand dollars of their parent's money) to find out what's really the truth. I've practically begged a "less than average" oboe player not to go forward, pointing out that if she couldn't manage the Bacchanalle solo from Samson et Delilah by age sixteen, she wasn't likely to be "big league" material. Ten years later, with her performance degree (why the "professionals" allowed her to continue is beyond me), she was pulling down the big bucks at the Automobile Club as a receptionist, waiting for an opportunity that was never going to come. (She still couldn't play oboe worth a bucket of warm spit.)
College is great, and should be a goal for everyone who can afford the freight. But, getting a performance degree from a college or a conservatory is a big crapshoot. (So is getting one in sculpture, interpretive dance, and any one of a thousand different "arts" disciplines.) You'll get a "second class" degree as far as 99% of the business world is concerned, one that will shut you out of a lot of jobs before the initial interview. Sure, you'll be a good player (in a sea of very good players) if you apply yourself. But, lose the post-college lottery...
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Author: GBK
Date: 2004-07-07 17:25
In the most basic of terms (from a previous posting):
"...Too many good players chasing too few job openings..."
- and those job openings are decreasing each year.
Follow your dreams if you must, but there is often a fine line between dreams and nightmares...GBK
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Author: JMcAulay
Date: 2004-07-07 17:59
Claire enquired: "Is it unrealistic to dream of one day having a job with the NY Phil?"
If you mean playing for them, yes, I believe it is. Because it indicates your love for the NY Phil, not your love for playing. To me, it's in the same class as a young person who dreams of marriage to some specific celebrity.
There's an old saying, "Don't go to work for a brewery just because you like their beer."
Regards,
John
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Author: mkybrain
Date: 2004-07-07 18:39
become a msuci teacher and then play gigs around in ur city..anyone?
of course u'd have to double. That's why im learning sax.
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Author: Claire
Date: 2004-07-07 18:49
that statement was a general one. I was more referring to getting a job with a high paying orchestra. I just used the NY phil as an example.
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Author: bill28099
Date: 2004-07-07 18:52
Too many people chasing too few jobs, is the situation really any different for the average football player? Lets see, there are 288 million people in the US and there must be at least 1 high school football team for every 10,000 people. That means 28,800 teams each with at least 50 aspiring NFLers. That's 1.44 million kids getting their knees, backs and hips ruined, no wonder health care is expensive in the US. Now my estimate based on what I see in the State of Washington is for every 6 million people there are 9 universities or colleges with a football team which leads one to the conclusion that there are about 432 colleges with football teams of about 50 players in the USA. That's 21,600 aspiring members for the NFL, quite a cut from the 1.44 million that started. There are 32 teams in the NFL each with at least 50 players and now were are down to 1600.
The problem with musicians is they work too long, the average tenure for a football player is likely not even 5 years, a musician lasts 6 times that long. The NFL needs at least 300 new bodies to ruin each year and the musical community a whole lot less.
A great teacher gives you answers to questions
you don't even know you should ask.
Post Edited (2004-07-07 19:17)
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Author: GBK
Date: 2004-07-07 19:35
bill28099 wrote:
> The problem with musicians is they work too long
When I recently asked Stanley "Wind Him Up and Off He Goes" Drucker how much longer he'll play with the NYPO, he replied:
"Why leave? It's any easy gig."
Since he now often only plays the first half of NYPO concerts, he said that if he catches the train just right, he is already home by the time the concert is completed ...GBK
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Author: Katrina
Date: 2004-07-08 02:47
So, GBK...who plays the second half of those concerts? And is there a tenure type system where that person doesn't get paid as much as Mr. Drucker 'cause they haven't been around as long?
Katrina
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Author: Keil
Date: 2004-07-08 03:38
i say go out and market yourself the best you can. Go meet the right people and see where life takes you... don't worry so much about the end result as much as the journey... granted we all can't be principal but someone has to be and who knows that could be you? Musicians are lucky in that to play an instrument requires brains and skill, if music isn't meant to be trust that you're resourceful enough to bring your life together. Besides the real money isn't in performance, it's in management.
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Author: JMcAulay
Date: 2004-07-08 20:20
There's real money in conducting, too.
Claire, thanks for your clarification. I would say there's nothing wrong with dreaming to play well enough to perform with that or any other good orchestra. Just be very certain you continue to assess yourself objectively.
Also note that there are a number of players on this board who are not with major orchestras, but they do play and also derive considerable income from teaching privately or in school settings. A dual (or more complex) career is okay, too, isn't it?
I'm concerned by some people's claims to love music, yet they will only consider work that's limited in scope to just one aspect of music -- playing, and in a superb orchestra, no less.
Regards,
John
Post Edited (2004-07-08 20:24)
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