 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: John J. Moses
Date: 2004-07-04 18:50
From today's NY Times:
"The base pay of a New York Philharmonic musician is now $103,000. According to 2003 tax records, Glenn Dicterow, the New York Philharmonic concertmaster, was making $366,000; Carter Brey, the principal cellist, $255,000; Philip Smith, the principal trumpeter, $243,000; Philip Myers, the principal hornist, $227,000; and Cynthia Phelps, the principal violist, $216,000. The have-nots in this scheme are primarily section string players, who have to pay for instruments costing significantly more than woodwinds or brasses — often in five or six figures."
Nice work, if you can get it!
JJM
Légère Artist
Clark W. Fobes Artist
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Author: Kevin
Date: 2004-07-04 19:19
And Maazel's work is even better.
http://www.nytimes.com/2004/07/04/arts/music/04TIND.html
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Author: GBK
Date: 2004-07-04 20:00
John,
Although the NYP and other orchestras are not recording anywhere near as frequently as a few decades ago, do you have any idea what the musicians' compensation (if any) would be on a typical symphony recording? ...GBK
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Author: hans
Date: 2004-07-04 20:08
Compared to professional baseball, hockey, and basketball players, who are basically entertainers working for a business, IMO it doesn't seem like NYP musicians are that well paid. I suppose it reflects our society's priorities.
Hans
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2004-07-04 20:14
hans wrote:
> Compared to professional baseball, hockey, and basketball
> players, who are basically entertainers working for a business,
> IMO it doesn't seem like NYP musicians are that well paid.
Actually that's a reasonable salary for the average pro football player (the ones who do the "grunt" work on the field, not the stars) and is a heck of a lot more than American pro soccer players make (my nephew, Andy Guastaferro, is a professional soccer player).
Along with the lesser probabilty of a career ending contact injury.
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Author: ken
Date: 2004-07-05 02:58
Interesting notion associating a pro athlete with an entertainer. When I think of an "entertainer" working for a business I envision Wayne Newton under contract performing at the Stardust Hotel not Sammy Sosa hitting home runs for the Chicago Cubs. To be fair and accurate, if you're going to readily compare the salaries of pro sport and major orchestra players it's only sensible to figure in all compensation, particularly the intangibles. Entitlements such as health care, incentives, bonuses, retirement plans, stock options, tenure, life insurance, tax credits, institutional identification and advertising, not to mention age and daily health are key factors. The list is as extensive as the terms of condition and pages of the contract. I am a traditional, die-hard capitalist myself. I believe that in America a person has the right to make as much money as their talent, hard work and influence takes them and in compliance with the market will bear ... I know if I was ever in the position of a major orchestra player I'd want the same opportunities afforded me. And, with the current trend of orchestras closing their doors, slashing their budgets and personnel and struggling to survive I find it amazing NY Phil members can demand those kinds of salaries and still keep their jobs. v/r Ken
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2004-07-05 03:07
ken wrote:
> And, with the
> current trend of orchestras closing their doors, slashing their
> budgets and personnel and struggling to survive I find it
> amazing NY Phil members can demand those kinds of salaries and
> still keep their jobs.
I'm not sure "demand" is the right word here. The base salary is about right; the higher salaries are due to endowed chairs.
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Author: John J. Moses
Date: 2004-07-05 04:37
Hi GBK:
A 3 hour film session in NYC pays about $300, a little more for principal players, and the first double is 50% overscale. Those figures are rough ones, as many sessions have special rules attached that may lower those figures. The latest special rule is "low budget films," they pay considerably less, and are becoming more frequent each year.
Local 802, in NYC, can give you the exact figures, and all the rules on each type of "date." Call Jay Schaffner at the recording office at the Union.
JJM
Légère Artist
Clark W. Fobes Artist
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Author: CPW
Date: 2004-07-05 13:29
try getting an apartment in NYC, feeding a family, parking, etc.
100K for section playah aint gonna cut into much.
Add to that the fact that any screw up and there are gadzillion other playahs waiting for your mistep (GBK's observation and mine as well).
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Author: mw
Date: 2004-07-05 16:27
One doesn't have to live in NYC, just because they work there. Apartments on Long Island aren't nearly as expensive as those in Manhattan (or the other 4 boroughs of NYC). Certainly, they are more expensive than some other parts of the USA, but it just depends - location, location, location is the rule that makes real estate more expenseive - whether buying or leasing. Feeding a family in NYC can be less expensive than the Midwest - larger populations w/increased competition for the grocery $ creates lower prices at the Supermarket. Families who don't have money to burn, don't eat out.
CPW said:
"Add to that the fact that any screw up and there are gadzillion other playahs waiting for your mistep."
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For any GOOD job, this is a fact of life. It's not ONLY peculiar to Music performance related work, it's peculiar to any good paying job. It's been my experience that while some employers pay attention to all employees, ALL employers pay attention to all employees that are paid well.
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Author: ken
Date: 2004-07-05 16:54
Mark Charette wrote,: I'm not sure "demand" is the right word here. The base salary is about right; the higher salaries are due to endowed chairs."
--shades of gray. The word "right" doesn't ring true to me either. As I understand the process, a scale-based entry-level salary is offered but there in some cases there is negotiating, and/or wiggle room depending on representation and chair. The word "demand" would strictly apply in a contract if there wasn't a specific non-strike or walk-out clause where the member can technically walk off the job.
Um, I wouldn't feel too sorry for these folks because they pay $3,000 a month for a NYC 1,000 sq ft apartment and 5 figures for a tuba or string bass. Besides, at their skill level they should be able to charm a snake by blowing into a rotted tree trunk. That's the gig, the life and career path they have freely chosen (or it chose them) and it is marvelous in our eyes. The high pressure for perfection comes with the turf but so does the notoriety, industry recognition and "package of success". An orchestra salary is but a portion of their annual income ... for a select few, beer money. Major orchestra players are the cream but business people as well as artists. If they're industrious, not limiting their full earning potential (and some have no choice to make ends meet) they've got a lot going on: they "demand" big bucks to give hourly lessons, do off-season and side gigs, recording spots, give clinics, make convention and guest solo-ensemble appearances, even compose-arrange music and guest conduct. Then there's individual product promotion which can be a cash cow in itself. They are also permited to associate their names and positions with the orchestra which generates more direct-indirect income.
Great work if you can get it. v/r Ken
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Author: msloss
Date: 2004-07-06 03:20
"Feeding a family can be less expensive than the Midwest..."? Can you please give me that list of grocery stores? Are they anywhere near those cheap apartments outside of NYC? The cost of living around here is astronomical whether or not you live in Manhattan proper. What might seem like a king's ransom in salary elsewhere in the country buys you a middle class existence here. Knockoff Rolexes and Gucci handbags I can get you cheap here -- groceries, uh uh.
Still, for a symphonic musician, that thar be purty nice compensation. Add faculty positions, clinic fees, recording dates, etc., and it don't suck to be in the upper tier of the Phil.
JJM, I think I'm less concerned about the low-budget film and limited-release record scales here and more about the Eastern Bloc orchestras that are starting to get that work. If it ain't VO's, it's "EBO"s...
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Author: diz
Date: 2004-07-06 03:54
Actually ... one must also bear in mind that the NYP is (or should be at any rate) one of the select few that are "the world's best". So, if you land a job with them, then you should expect adequate remuneration.
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Author: mw
Date: 2004-07-06 12:46
""Feeding a family can be less expensive than the Midwest..."? Can you please give me that list of grocery stores? Are they anywhere near those cheap apartments outside of NYC? The cost of living around here is astronomical whether or not you live in Manhattan proper. What might seem like a king's ransom in salary elsewhere in the country buys you a middle class existence here. Knockoff Rolexes and Gucci handbags I can get you cheap here -- groceries, uh uh."
-----------------------
I have family throughout Nassau & Suffolk counties. Immediate family - brothers & sisters. I grew up on Long Island. Grocery store bought food on Long Island is cheaper than Dallas, Tulsa, Oklahoma City, Kansas City & Denver to name a few. My immediate family lives in several apartments in Nassau & Suffolk Counties. I do all of their tax work & I know EXACTLY how much rent they pay for apartments in Rockville Centre, Bellmore, Wantaugh & similar locales.
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Author: msloss
Date: 2004-07-06 13:17
Much of my family lives in Denver and my mother nearly plotzes when she sees the cost of food here. Many of my friends and colleagues are LI residents and I hear no end of grousing about property taxes, cost of goods and services, home prices, etc. (of course they love the Oyland and wouldn't live anywhere else for love or money). I'll work from what I see and hear with my own eyes and ears, you do the same, and we'll agree to disagree on the point. I stand by my assertion that, while the NYPO's salaries are stunning for the orchestral business, they do not buy a particularly opulent lifestyle here, on or off Manhattan.
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Author: GBK
Date: 2004-07-06 14:22
As a resident of Long Island, the cost of food is not the issue - never has been, probably never will be.
Now, property taxes/school taxes, electric rate, gas prices, auto insurance, etc... - that's another story altogether.
It always boils down to how much you are willing to pay for the quality of life you are enjoying ...GBK
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Author: RAMman
Date: 2004-07-06 14:31
WHAT??
My god, if any British orchestral player made close to that I'd be an awful lot happier!
Interesting comment about the American soccer players...when you consider that the British ones earn £10K to £60K a week.
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Author: Don Poulsen
Date: 2004-07-06 14:48
Ken wrote:
"Interesting notion associating a pro athlete with an entertainer."
That's exactly what pro athletes are -- entertainers. Perhaps not in the traditional sense, but entertainers nonetheless. They would not get paid unless they had an audience that they were entertaining. And, whether an entertainer happens to be a pro basketball player, pro soccer player, movie star, or orchestral musician, there is a correlation between his/her pay and his/her power to draw an audience. Pro soccer players in the U.S. don't make as much as pro basketballers because they don't draw nearly as big an audience. The same can be said in comparing, say, the salaries of the WNBA vs. the NBA, NYPO musicians vs. Brittny Spears, etc.
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Author: William
Date: 2004-07-06 15:01
Ken wrote, "Besides, at their skill level they should be able to charm a snake by blowing into a rotted tree trunk. "
I can't stop laughing...........I just can't.................(great line) wheeeeeeee
But it's true, it isn't so much the equipement as the player. And it is great work if you can--are good and lucky enough to--get it.
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2004-07-06 17:47
The NY Philharmonic players in general, and the principals in particular, are the stars of their profession. Every player in the NBA makes over $1 million per year, and for a top player. the sky's the limit. True, Michael Jordan took a lot more physical punishment than Stanley Drucker, and MJ's career is long over, while SD is 50 years and counting, but I think it's still a reasonable comparison.
A friend from Akron told me last week that the principal flute job is open, and they've had more applications than they can handle, from some amazing players. The job pays $8,000 per year. Even if the "low Midwest cost of living" was real, that's pretty darn little to live on. I'm glad I'm not trying to.
Best regards.
Ken Shaw
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Author: diz
Date: 2004-07-06 22:16
Ken Shaw ... I think the working life of a musican compared to a pro-footballer can not be compared. A musican would still be working at aged 80 (in theory) yet a footballer would have had so many knee-cap reconstructions and hip replacements (et cetera) that he'd be a cripple ... hence about 4 times the working life = about a 1/4 of the salary ... seems pretty equitable to me - I could be wrong, often am.
Without music, the world would be grey, very grey.
Post Edited (2004-07-07 00:59)
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2004-07-07 16:24
Yeah, but Jordan made (and still makes) a pile from endorsements. Have you seen an Aire Drucker ligature lately, and would Stanley get, say $1 mil. a year for letting them put his name on it? I don't know what he makes for the use of his picture in Buffet ads, but I suspect that if it exceeds 4 figures, it won't be by much.
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Author: Keil
Date: 2004-07-07 17:41
I know 2 people that went to guildhall and they loved it! Great program... Diz if you could contact me i would love to get your perspective on it. Thanx
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Author: JMcAulay
Date: 2004-07-07 17:45
John J. Moses wrote: "Nice work, if you can get it!"
John, I suspect you could be in the NYP if you wanted to be there. I also suspect you are enjoying the work you do more than the prospect of restricting yourself to just a single orchestra, no matter which one.
By the way, John, I saw the DVD of "Kate and Leopold" recently. Nice, very pleasant Clarinet work in the music. Might that have been you, or do you know who 'twas?
Regards,
John
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Author: John J. Moses
Date: 2004-07-07 23:19
Hi John:
Thanks for the kind words.
I do play occasionally with the NY Philharmonic, and got a solo bow on Eb clarinet from Mazur before he left a few years ago. It is always a great thrill to play with the Philharmonic, and many of the other great groups here in NYC. There are so many great opportunities to play here, that one has to decide what is most musically meaningful, and also pays the bills.
I have been very lucky over the past 40+ years in NYC. I've played with every major group, and some that are no longer here!
Broadway, Freelance Orchestras, Jingles, and Film Dates are my current joys. Who knows what the next 40 years will bring?
Good luck to you, and all the others on the Clarinet BB,
JJM
Légère Artist
Clark W. Fobes Artist
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Author: John J. Moses
Date: 2004-07-11 13:33
From today's NY Times "Letters"
"Payment in Car
To the Editor:
[ See http://www.nytimes.com/2004/07/11/arts/11MAIL.html. PLEASE! do not copy articles and/or letters to the editor here. Short excerpts only to illustrate a point; entire letters or articles are verboten by law without the express permission of the author(s) or copyright owners.
I just posted a topic about this ...
Mark C. ]
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