 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: stagehand
Date: 2004-06-30 02:29
Hello, I was hoping somebody could help me. I am doing lessons with young woodwind students (4th-8th graders) and I have a 10 year old that is changing from alto to soprano sax. His mother bought him a brand new soprano, so it looks like he is staying with it. My problem is I have never taught soprano sax. Are there any tricks to getting a good tone on a soprano or getting it to play in tune? Any and all tricks to the soprano are welcome.
Thanks,
Sara
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Author: Burt
Date: 2004-06-30 04:02
From the soprano sax players I've heard, I concluded that a soprano is not supposed to be played in tune.
Seriously, the soprano requires a slightly tighter embouchure, somewhere between an alto and a clarinet.
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Author: William
Date: 2004-06-30 05:01
Like any instrument, the soprano sax must be played in tune. One thing that will help is to be certain to insert the mouthpiece nearly all the way on the cork neck. Then incourage a relaxed embouchure so that all notes will be essentially lipped down (hopefully in tune) and the few flat notes will be managable. Vibrato will help tolerate the thinness of the sound, especially the higher range.
It is my opinion, however, that the soprano sax is an inappropriate instrument for a ten year old student to concentrate--or even begin--on. The alto or tenor sax would be a much more logical choice as they are "mainstream" concert band and jazz ensemble instruments. I would encourage the parents to take the instrument back to wherever they bought it, get their money back or trade it for an alto.
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Author: BobD
Date: 2004-06-30 12:00
Afraid I agree with William based on my experience and biases. Sounds like the parents may have been ill advised or overpressurized.
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Author: stagehand
Date: 2004-07-01 04:48
I agree about the soprano sax being WRONG for a ten year old...but the parents want him to stick with it. I am going to encourage him to go back to alto, but I am going to do the best I can with him this summer to get the soprano sounding "descent" haha.
Thanks for the help,
Sara
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2004-07-01 13:49
i've only tried playing soprano sax a few times, last time was yesterday. my saxophonist friend (who is a one of the best classical saxophonist in israel) was really impressed with my tone especially in the low notes. i tried playing it like a clarinet and i used a clarinet reed too. if i ever start playing sax i think i'll just play like this and not 'correct'. with this being said, i agree that it's better not to start with soprano right away, alto is better.
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Author: msloss
Date: 2004-07-01 14:23
Sara,
There is no earthly reason why a kid shouldn't be playing soprano sax. However, unless he is playing in sax quartets (unlikely for a 10 year old) the soprano isn't likely to see a lot of action. Given that the financial commitment has already been made, I would encourage the student to do both alto and soprano. The technique is the same so nothing you teach will be in conflict.
As far as tone and pitch, two thoughts: #1 -- it isn't a clarinet, it is a saxophone. The embouchere (particularly instrument angle) should be consistent with the rest of the sax family. This has an enormous effect on both pitch and timbre. #2 -- don't just jam the mouthpiece on and assume the kid can lip it into tune. If you don't play soprano, find someone who does to find where the mpiece should be set for good pitch on the subject instrument.
Best of luck with it.
Mark
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Author: Terry Stibal
Date: 2004-07-01 14:42
Those who view the soprano as not being "mainstream" are as stuck in the mud as I am with my preferences for the recordings of Charlie Barnett.
Like it or not (and I don't, for the record), it's now a "mainstream" instrument in the pop world. It also has the benefit of being easily integrated into a musical program (plenty of soprano pitch clarinet parts in Bb if there's no soprano sax part in an arrangement), and it is more friendly to the hands of youngsters than even the alto. There are also finally affordable, "student grade" soprano saxes, whereas formerly they (1950's - 1980's) were only available in professional grade horns.
While we were meshed in our "correct" world of what should be in the instrumental music world, a whole new strain of "smooth jazz" performers arose and forced the soprano back into the limelight. Mr. "Off Center In The Mouth" Kenny G is the most prominent of these, but if you listen to any of the "smooth jazz" radio stations, you'll hear so much soprano sax that your head will spin. It's also used in a lot of "progressive" religious service music, again coming from the smooth jazz roots.
I don't know why the soprano has been so successful in this while the more mellow alto does as good of a job while possessing superior (in my opinion) tonal characteristics. I once heard someone opine that the Bb pitch of the tenor and soprano was responsible, as they fit better with C pitch instruments when improvising (as opposed to the Eb alto and baritone).
Teaching it is another kettle of fish entirely. I used to have all of my students spend a couple of weeks on each of the saxophones, just to give them some exposure ahead of actually needing to make the switch. (I'm a big believer in doubling skills, particularly for bass clarinet players who may need to fill more than one role with an orchestra, and pit music was always an important part of the curriculum for the advanced high school age student.) While I could communicate the alto and tenor embouchure well enough, getting the right combination of control and relaxation for either the soprano or the baritone was always a magnitude of difficulty greater.
One thing for sure that I can add is that I _would_not_ try to play the soprano like you would a clarinet, particularly embouchure wise. Different set of requirements, different dynamics of the horn, and so forth. Vibrato is an integral part of saxophone playing, and it's particularly tricky on the soprano sax. Perhaps that's why there were so few uses for the soprano from the 1920's to the 1980's.
And, I have played in a group led by a man who refused to allow any of the soprano parts (there were twenty or so out of seven hundred arrangements) to be played on the soprano sax. (The lead alto used Bb soprano clarinet instead.) The leader just didn't like the sound, most likely due to never having heard one played correctly.
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Author: johnsonfromwisconsin
Date: 2004-07-01 14:48
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There is no earthly reason why a kid shouldn't be playing soprano sax. However, unless he is playing in sax quartets (unlikely for a 10 year old) the soprano isn't likely to see a lot of action. Given that the financial commitment has already been made, I would encourage the student to do both alto and soprano. The technique is the same so nothing you teach will be in conflict.
As far as tone and pitch, two thoughts: #1 -- it isn't a clarinet, it is a saxophone. The embouchere (particularly instrument angle) should be consistent with the rest of the sax family. This has an enormous effect on both pitch and timbre. #2 -- don't just jam the mouthpiece on and assume the kid can lip it into tune. If you don't play soprano, find someone who does to find where the mpiece should be set for good pitch on the subject instrument.
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I agree.
Stagehand sounds like a private instructor, not a director. As such, it would probably be best to do what is asked. I can't see why a beginner can't learn on soprano (unless it's a crappy soprano) save that the embrochure is a bit more difficult and requires more precision than the larger horns.
However, a director would be well within his rights to deny any soprano player who selfishly wishes to use the instrument in an ensemble by just reading along with the clarinets, tenors, or trumpets. If that is the situation, I'd tell the parents that they and their soprano playing child are out of luck! Or tell them to line up behind all the (fictional) bagpipe, ocarina, digery-doo, and serpent players who have made similar requests.
-JfW
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Author: Markus Wenninger
Date: 2004-07-01 18:58
I agree with Mark and Kerry completely (the linked article is als helpful indeed). There´s a chance a young kid could perhaps develop his own sound, his inner ear, and not just be one more to be drilled to sound like all the rest. Intonation is not about that at all. What it means to sound right is a bit more complicated than asking "uhoh, he cannot possibly hit and hold the a at 440 hrz". I experienced pupils of that very age most capable of a much more wider horizon musically speaking and deeper insight in musical structures and generative processes. Technique will be mastered, sooner or later, it is just of the identical difficulty as on all the other saxes or any instrument. It is just about learning how to use a tool, and if the inner sound of this kid not corrupted by this nivellating demand on homogenity and well-temperedness and dumb "it don´t mean a thing if aint got that swing", he might develop what he hears inside him, to full bloom.
Markus
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Author: Synonymous Botch
Date: 2004-07-01 19:44
Two additional factors could motivate this purchase;
Many of the Taiwan made sopranos are well built, and inexpensive.
Smaller instruments may be well suited to smaller hands.
Most of the bands I play in, the sharpest note win(d)s anyway.
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2004-07-02 05:05
msloss wrote:
"As far as tone and pitch, two thoughts: #1 -- it isn't a clarinet, it is a saxophone. The embouchere (particularly instrument angle) should be consistent with the rest of the sax family. This has an enormous effect on both pitch and timbre."
actually, like i described a few posts up, i played a soprano like a clarinet and my sound was very good and unique especially on the lower notes (i know it is not modest to say but what can i say) and i had no pitch problems at all. i guess if you are just starting on sax you might as well play it like a sax, but in music i think no matter what you do is ok, as long is it gets you the result you want.
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Author: BobD
Date: 2004-07-02 11:38
So.....even if the kid turns out to be a virtuoso on the sop sax where's he going to play it .......And if the experience is a bummer Mom can get him something else she likes.....
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Author: msloss
Date: 2004-07-02 12:20
"clarinbass" -- I'm glad you are having a positive and rewarding experience with the soprano sax using unconventional technique, but what we are discussing here is the right way to instruct a child per the original post. Despite outward appearances, clarinet and sop sax are very different instruments ((poly)cylindrical vs. conical bore for starters). In my own experience as a player and an instructor for more years than I care to admit, employing clarinet technique gets a pleasant enough sound, but the timbral qualities and lack of projection are very wrong, and it does induce pitch complications that are not inherent to the instrument. Additionally, for a young student on sop saxophone, teaching the wrong approach would cripple his ability to play the other members of the family. All the same, keep having fun with it.
Regards, and have a nice weekend.
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Author: Wes
Date: 2004-07-03 19:49
There is some great advice here. In playing the soprano sax, it is very important to provide high pressure air to the instrument as it is with any wind instrument as none of them work well with wimpy air support. One great player and teacher, now passed, said that it often takes ten years to develop proper air support for playing any saxophone.
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2004-07-03 23:11
I'm not sure if anybody has mentioned embouchure.
Quite apart from the angle, of the sax which is more straight out than it is for clarinet, sax embouchure is very different from clarinet, and using clarinet embouchure creates a whole lot of problems, especially for pitch control, and especially if he moves on to larger saxes, where the effects become increasingly significant for drastic also for tone, attack, and even more so, altissimo notes.
Clarinet typically has the lower lip stretched thin before inserting the mouthpiece and closing the lips.
Sax embouchure begins with lips somewhat pouted rather than stretched smilewise, this being seemingly to result in a lip cushion which is thicker. from front to back.
As we play higher in the range for clarinet, we increase air pressure, and lip support (although many players seem to be unconscious of themselves doing it). With the saxophones, this tendency must be resisted, or the high notes will go way sharp.
Air pressure and lip support have far more effect on intonation than they do on clarinet. Therefore a beginner needs an excellent ear to play in tune. With clarinet, tuning is RELATIVELY automatic.
Some people think that sopranos are wildy out of tune instruments. Not so. It is the player, and particularly his ear that is wildly out of tune; similar clarinet players just get away with it more. You don't accuse a violin of being wildly out of tune; it is the player.
Sopranos have a very poor reputation for wild pitch, but as far as intonation of the instrument goes, acoustic design in modern sopranos has made them now very well in tune, and far more stable in pitch. Some players even complain that they cannot bend notes so easily on modern instruments.
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