 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Bass1193
Date: 2004-06-26 07:02
Hi all!
I have an old G. Preuffer of Providence, RI Bb soprano. It plays okay, but a curiosity... The two body joints are of wood and the barrel and bell are both of plastic. I think they're actually hard rubber. The bell and barrel are both stamped G. Preuffer, and the bell is also marked "Carl Fischer, exclusive distributor". It may not mean anything, but the "Carl Fischer..." text on the bell is "double struck", like in coins, when the piece to be stamped doesn't move along and it gets doubly stamped. The serial numbers on the body joints match, and the upper joint is marked "Professional Model". Does anyone know if this horn was origionally this way? With the dual media? I am very curious on this subject, and it would be great to find out if this clarinet is actually interesting.
Thanks, and jolly good day!!
Bass1193
p.s. I'm a youngster yet, and I hope what I'm saying is right, but if it's not then give me a shout so that I may stand corrected!
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2004-06-26 17:50
Hi Bass 1193, my bass is a Selmer 33, been playing it a lot recently. I'm sure a number of us have, as a collector horn, or for occasional playing, a Pruefer of some 50++ years in age. Mine is a single-body, wood, 19/7 [missing the low Eb of the Full Boehm] . I date it by guess at a 1920's model, the keys are shiny, like silver, plastic-coated, John Butler prob. knows. With his overhaul and a bit of my tweaking, it plays quite well for a repaired-crack, old cl, its on display now in our library, part of our OK Mozart "nostalgia". I have had a plastic, student-model Pr, a reasonably good player, given to a needy family's student. Prob. your plastic [HR] barrel/bell are originals, with the logos, likely [my sheer guess] cheaper and non-cracking! I also have a VI alto, our son has "my" VI tenor, AND I wish I had a VI bari, it and an old Conn are my preferreds for small-hand playing !! Regards, Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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Author: ron b
Date: 2004-06-26 18:13
With all those Mark-Sixes in your households, Don and Bass, I'm guessing you two are either holed up in Fort Knox or you're insured by Lloyds of London 
I have a Prueffer Oehler (Bb) and have no idea how old it is, Bass1193 - doesn't really matter to me... it plays good. I know very little about Prueffer instruments in general although I've seen plastic ones and wood ones(all Boehms). I've never seen one combined like yours but I imagine they made them like that too; several manufacturers did. [(whispers)... My experience is quite limited, as you've probably guessed by now] but, taking that as it is, all the folks I've met who own Prueffers like 'em.
- r![[cool]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/cool.gif) n b -
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2004-06-26 20:03
TKS for your concerns, Ron, went close to Ft Knox, didn't get "gold fever" [as in Paint Your Wagon}, tho , last conexion w: Lloyds was in" Around in 80 Daze". I guess our location is quite safe, I have wondered, having a few goodies. 1193, take a look at EBAY, might be of interest. Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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Author: ron b
Date: 2004-06-27 01:26
Last time I had my hands on a tenor Mark VI, Don, there were "OOOhs" and "AAAhs" from all over the shop where I'd taken it for a Second Opinion, because I had misgivings about overhauling it as my customer had requested. The instrument belonged to his Mom, who was a professional player, but he knew nothing about it - only that he wanted it fixed to have around the house in case someone who could play it came to visit. His Mom never played it after 'the kids came along'. Now, here it was on my 'exam table'. It was a "mint condition" horn - meaning it had never been worked on, original pads, corks, and a little bit o' green stuff arond the low Eb tonehole... even the neck cork appeared to be 'factory'. My customer's Mom had obviously taken excellent care of the instrument - a technician's delight. I told him I wanted a second opinion before doing anything to his horn. My inclination was confirmed by a firm admonitiona by very knowledgeable sax player/repairer... "DON"T TOUCH IT!!!". As it sat, in its original case, it was easily worth around $6,000 to $8,000 bux -- I had two offers on the spot, until I explained it wasn't my horn :| Give it another couple of years and it might easily go for Ten Grand
..."Restore" it and its price tag would be in the neighborhood of two to four thousand at best on a very good day. In other words: if I 'fixed' it, I would ruin its value - leave it as is and it's worth a minor fortune... two months later the owner, I presume, is still "thinking about it".
That's why I'm concerned about you two, Don. Mark VI's are magnificent horns. But, wherever you go outside your fort, you'd be well advised to never let it out of your sight....
- ron b -
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Author: Bass1193
Date: 2004-06-27 01:37
Hey!!
Thanks for all the coments. I do like the way my Preuffer sounds, even though it's a bit of a cross breed. My Mark VIs aren't in as good gondition as the one you described, ron b, but they still play like a dream!! They both almost need overhauling, but they still have great sound. I AM being rather melodramatic; they're really not that bad off. They could do with some new pads, though...
Thaks!!
Sean
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Author: ron b
Date: 2004-06-27 04:11
Well, the horn I described, Sean, is for sure a very unusual 'find', definitely far from typical. I have no idea how long it was played but from the condition it appeared to have been handled very little. The case had been around the block a few times though.
From what I understand pads are an unavoidable neccessity but... don't ever even *consider* re-lacquering your Mark VI -- the Selmer Players Guild will tear you limb from limb.
Sax players are a funny breed, (aren't we?) --
- r b -
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Author: Bass1193
Date: 2004-06-27 04:21
Hola Ron B!
I agree with your final comment. We are a bit zealous!! I would never consider relacquering anything!!! I completely agree that that is an act of evil the likes of which no "clarinet-only" player can comprehend. Or could they? Perhaps if somebody burned a whole stack of Buffets... Yes. I think that would accurately equal the horror!
Cheers,
Sean
p.s. I'm a youngster yet, and I hope what I'm saying is right, but if it's not then give me a shout so that I may stand corrected!
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Author: Igloo Bob
Date: 2004-06-27 06:02
In the opinion of some around here (they seem to be fewer these days than they were a few years back, though, if searches I've done are any indication) "burning a whole stack of Buffets" wouldn't be such a bad thing. A victory for Selmer? Maybe.
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Author: Bass1193
Date: 2004-06-27 06:09
Indeed!
I was reading a review of the new Selmer and Buffet basses out on the market the other day. I think it was by Bonade. He was saying that in the past, those two brands haven't taken much care in designing their basses, but now they're in a competition to see who can make the best. He also implies that one of them will have to go down. It'll be interesting to see either torpedo the other into oblivion, but for now I'll just sit backwith my popcorn and watch the battle go on!Igloo Bob wrote:
p.s. I'm a youngster yet, and I hope what I'm saying is right, but if it's not then give me a shout so that I may stand corrected!
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Author: Bass1193
Date: 2004-06-27 06:12
How did that "Igloo Bob wrote:" get in there? Mabe I accidentally pushed the quote button?
p.s. I'm a youngster yet, and I hope what I'm saying is right, but if it's not then give me a shout so that I may stand corrected!
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2004-06-27 15:01
Many TKS, Ron, for your stories about and concerns for these "golden oldies". I'll try to recall my purchases, uses by me and sons, repairs, care etc, but will put into an E-M to you [et al?], so as to not further confuse with Prufers. Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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Author: Igloo Bob
Date: 2004-06-27 22:25
About the Mark VI - have any of you tried the Selmer Reference 54's? The reviews I've read says that it compares very favorably with the Mark VI, and a lot of people seem to consider it the "top" sax currently on the market. I'm not a sax player, so I'm just going by what I've read. Just curious about this, as I've thought about picking up sax for jazz band next year, and did a lot of research because of that.
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Author: ron b
Date: 2004-06-27 22:52
Is "Reference 54" a marketing gimmik meaning it's referenced to/patterned after the Mark VI?
Sometimes copies are pretty good, sometimes not. I imagine that after the 'real' Mark VIs two, three, four year run[?], whatever it was, the tooling and machinery got changed("upgraded") to produce the newer improved models. We know the result of that action. If you find a "Reference 54" and try it out, maybe you can let us know what you think, Iggy-Bob
- rb -
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2004-06-27 23:18
I'm fishing my memory for the predecessor to the 6's, SBC?, Balanced Action?. I worked/played on an alto once, not as good as the 6, IMHO. I forget when the first 6's were sold, mid '50's + ?? Never heard of Ref. 54 !! A? for Saxontheweb, maybe someone here knows. Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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Author: Igloo Bob
Date: 2004-06-28 04:21
A few links:
http://www.wwbw.com/Selmer-Reference-54-Alto-Sax-i103406.music?match=1
http://www.donmack.com/selmer/Ref54Alto.htm
http://www.saxquest.com/productDetails.asp?productcode=ref54alto
http://www.saxforte.com/saxophones/Eb_Alto/Eb_Alto_Selmer__Paris_/Reference_54_Alto/reference_54_alto.html
So basically, it's supposed to be a Mark VI with modern keywork, if I read correctly. I personally don't like the color, but I suppose that means little. Of course, I'm the kind of guy who would buy a silver french horn, not because of the metal's sound quality, but just because I think the silver ones look the coolest, regardless of what those "experts" say about it being generally inferior to the ugly-looking conns! Indeed, I should never be allowed to buy a non-Clarinet instrument. If Brass, I'll go for the pretty-looking ones, regardless of what metal is best for the sound, if Sax, I'll just go for the best-looking lacquer, and if flute, I'll completely ignore the gold flutes, regardless of how good they're supposed to be, because I think gold flutes are ugly. I suppose it's good that I ended up on the Clarinet, as with a few exceptions, they come only in one color. No choices to ruin there.
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Author: Bass1193
Date: 2004-06-28 04:44
I hope GBK doesn't get angry with us for discussing non-clarinet items. I think this is about general music with emphasis on clarinet, yes?
I agree Iggy-Bob (that should be your permanent nickname). I have a friend with a Selmer Omega flute that's rather hideous (gold plated keys and lip plate with silver body) but it sounds great. I can't find Omega on the Selmer website. Does anyone know much about these, especially weather US or Paris? I've seen an Omega clarinet. It has a garish engraving on the bell, kinda' over the top.
Cheers,
Sean
p.s. I'm a youngster yet, and I hope what I'm saying is right, but if it's not then give me a shout so that I may stand corrected!
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2004-06-28 16:04
GBK - Since we have "morphed over" to discussing Saxes, if possible, could we transfer the last few posts and this "dissertation" into a new thread, if agreeable with Mark C also, Don TKS for the links, very interesting, now believe I had heard of this Selmer-Paris sales effort, just didn't know its name. A noble repeat of one of the greatest successes in their marketing, more to the US, perhaps. The major diff. [in keying] that I see from the Mark VI's of the 50-70's, is the high F#, which is prob. more convenient than alternate fingerings for the "above F" notes that some players go to, perhaps to be heard?? Attempts to improve tonal character, beyond the [reputedly] hand-hammered bodies of the oldies, would be hard [for me] to assess, considering its dependence on player, mp and reed. Their [Ref. 54{year?}] prices are right up with those of the available Mark VI's [look at Ebay bids] and for me, to purchase, would demand close, playing comparison to the 80's and the for-sale VI's [even facing up to $500+ [I paid $400 on my "needy" tenor, years ago] in repair/restoration cost {grab that one, Ron!}. Just my opinions!, I'd suggest going to Saxontheweb and other sax sites [my friend in Coweta, OK, deals in saxes etc, cant come up with his web-site rite now], will post later when my brain-tape works!! 'Nuff for naow, big subject ! Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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Author: Henry
Date: 2004-06-28 16:14
Don:
I believe that you mean "up to $5000" (not $500) for available old Selmer Mark VIs. By most accounts, the current Selmer "Reference 54" is a great horn that may be setting a new standard, although others swear by the top-line Yanigasawa's or Yamaha's.
Henry
Post Edited (2004-06-28 16:15)
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Author: Igloo Bob
Date: 2004-06-28 19:19
Indeed, Don, a close comparison would be in order. One I probably would not be qualified to participate in in any way ("well y'know, sure, that one sounds better, but it's ugly! This one's shinier. Oh come on, buy the shiny one!")
Henry said:
Quote:
By most accounts, the current Selmer "Reference 54" is a great horn that may be setting a new standard, although others swear by the top-line Yanigasawa's or Yamaha's.
Heh, I'll bet their pocketbooks don't swear in quite the same way about those top-line Yanigasawa's.
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2004-06-28 21:22
TKS, Henry, for careful reading, what I was trying to say was that an EBAY, or other used, horn would likely need at least $500 in repair/restoration cost above the sales cost, of several thousand $s, so that should be "factored in" . As Mark C has told us, we had better end this discussion here, and find another "home" if any of us wish to continue. Sorry, M C, I knew it was getting out of hand. Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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Author: Henry
Date: 2004-06-28 23:40
Don: Thanks for setting me straight. I misread your post. Sorry!
Henry
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