 The Clarinet BBoard
|
Author: Igloo Bob
Date: 2004-06-27 18:48
Opinion and conjecture are welcome. I'm curious as to how a top-of-the-line instrument would affect a new player to an instrument. Say if I were switching from Flute to Bass Clarinet (or doubling, maybe) and my professor or band director handed me a Selmer 37/Buffet 1193, how would that affect my Bass Clarinet growth in the long term? Would I grow reliant on the niceties (like alternate E-flat/A-flat keys) that would eventually cause me to be a "weaker" player? And more importantly (and closer to the reason I'm making this thread) are pro instruments usually designed specifically for the better players? That is, assuming I have a good grasp on how to treat an instrument well because I come from a similar instrument, would it be more difficult to start on a Selmer 37 than a Vito bass? Is there some "secret quality" that pro players develop on their instruments that is required to sound even decent on a pro instrment?
If that's too vague (I'm having a bit of trouble defining my actual question) I'll try putting it another way. When switching to a new woodwind instrument I've never played before, is there going to be any advantage on playing a low-end student model until I get better on the instrument? Or will it always be a Selmer 37 > Vito, period, regardless of how good a player I am? All that being asked, I guess I should note that I'm not switching to Bass, nor have I ever touched Flute, I'm just using those as an example. I'm more curious, than anything else.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: theclarinetist
Date: 2004-06-27 20:41
I suppose it's a difficult questions to answer... I probably wouldn't want to start a kid on a Tosca. The extra keys (particularly the low F vent) would probably only be confusing because they wouldn't understand their use. Not that these keys would hurt them, but I don't think a new student would be able to use them to their full advantage. I could see how an "extra" like a left-hand Eb key might (in theory) become a disadvantage if you got too used to it, but from my experience with beginners, I highly doubt they would be that inclined to use it even if it was there.
One the flip side, I have many a student whose progess is retarded by playing a P.O.S. clarinet their parents picked up at a garage sale (or worse yet, Sam's Club!). If I had to pick between this and a Tosca, I would pick the latter, just because at least it would work (I'd never actually played a tosca so please, don't construe my comments to mean that Toscas are the premiere instrument or something... I'm just using them as an example of a pro model instrument with unneeded features for a beginner).
Ideally, I would opt for something like an R-13 or E-11. These instruments don't have any unnecessary features which could potential confuse, but they are good instruments that will not be an impediment either. I realize your question was about starting other instruments (presumbly other than clarinet), but I just used clarinets as an example because that's what I know...
DH
theclarinetist@yahoo.com
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Igloo Bob
Date: 2004-06-27 21:48
Quite alright, what instrument we use isn't important, I appreciated your comments. So what you said sounds like what I was assuming, but wasn't sure on - a pro instrument may not be utilized to it's full potential until a player improves, but it'll rarely if ever slow a student's growth. Handing someone an R13 won't make getting a working tone out of the instrument any more difficult (and probably easier, really) than it would've been on a student clarinet.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: theclarinetist
Date: 2004-06-27 23:23
That is definitely the case with r-13s, but I can't say for all instruments, of course. I know that with some instruments, such as flute, certain features can give beginners trouble (such as having an in-line g instead of an offest g), so it think in this case the beginner model may be better. However, I started on a flute with an in-line g and never had trouble (I've always had big hands), where as I know some college level flautists who still use flutes with offset g. I think it is more of a personal thing that depends on the individual more than blanket categories like "beginner" or "advanced". Also, with bass clarinets, having a low C bass and all the extra pinky keys involved may be more trouble than their worth. Again, however, I have a student who started on a low C bass and has done exceptionally well (again, more of an individual thing).
DH
theclarinetist@yahoo.com
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: theclarinetist
Date: 2004-06-27 23:32
just another note, if you are concerned with tone production, mouthpiece is probably more important than instrument. Many beginners play on a stock mouthpiece or something similar, which is a serious impediment to a good sound. I've had students sounds drastically improve when switching to a vandoren (or similar quality) mouthpiece, even some of whom played on really bad clarinets...
I think it's hard to compare, because people with pro-level expensive instruments are also likely playing on expensive, high quality mouthpieces with reeds that have been personally adjusted (or at least selected with more care than an average beginner student who just buys reeds from their band director). There are many variables to consider. It might make for an interesting experiment where all variables could be controlled.
DH
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: happyamateur
Date: 2004-06-28 01:33
I say got for it. In my experience (as an adult who knows how to care for a woodwind) after attaining a rudimentary facility on any instrument the chance to play a pro-level instrument is really inspiring - the potential for expression and nuance is exciting. I also think that if you're an adult why invest money in an instrument that you might not be satisfied with in a short time. As an example I picked up an inexpensive Gemeinhardt student flute and it was just fine for learning embrouchure and fingering but didn't make me want to put aside the clarinet and say WOW, this is for me. I bought another flute in large part because it was just a terrific bargan - a Muramatsu DN. While I'm not going to abandon clarinet in any way, I get such joy from playing this fabulous instrument - it lets me know when I'm doing everthing right (or anything wrong for that matter) by becoming this vibrating anima-filled wonder - it feels as if it wants to leap out of my hands. I'm not an advanced flute player by any stretch of the imagination, but having an advanced instrument makes me long and strive to be better.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Igloo Bob
Date: 2004-06-28 02:03
Indeed. It would depend a great deal on how advanced the player was in general, as well, I would imagine, and their previous instrument experience. Someone coming off a Low-C Bass Clarinet might not have as much trouble learning an Alto Sax with an extra button or two as a French Horn player switching to Alto Sax would.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: ohsuzan
Date: 2004-06-28 02:42
I seem to recall reading here on this board, or in some of his literature, Tom Ridenour's argument that beginners should have the BEST possible instrument right from the start. That, I believe, is the rationale behind his development of the TR 147.
As someone who struggled all through high school to achieve "first chair" status with bottom-of-the-heap, inferior clarinets, I really appreciate Mr. Ridenour's way of thinking. It was enormously frustrating to know how I wanted to sound, and what I wanted the instrument to do, but not be able to make the instrument respond.
I'd go so far as to say that, for the talented student, attempting to compensate for the shortcomings of an inferior instrument (even a so-called "student" instrument) can lead to the creation of wrong and bad playing habits that may be impossible to break, or at least, difficult to overcome. So, start high -- and aim higher.
Susan
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Igloo Bob
Date: 2004-06-28 03:13
Susan, I would definitely agree! I wonder just how many "school-maintained" instruments, especially more expensive ones like Bass Clarinets, have caused major damage to junior high and high school players? I myself have felt the frustration of trying to start pieces on upper-clarion notes, only to fail miserably because of the instruments and the lovely jobs the local repair shops have done on them.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: saxlite
Date: 2004-06-28 03:26
As both a player and a repair tech for woodwinds, I am really saddened by the condition of the instruments brought to me for "minor adjustments". Why the teachers/band directors let kids struggle with horns with many faults, waiting until the horn just won't play at all before bringing them in, is hard to understand. The kids have little chance of knowing whteher it is the horn or their need for corrective instruction to achieve results. Tom Ridenour is correct; give the student a horn that helps, rather than hinders. Same goes for an advancing player-always get the very best instrument you can afford, and keep it in top shape. It is the fastest way to make progress.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: pewd
Date: 2004-06-28 04:13
>Why the teachers/band directors let kids struggle with horns with many
>faults, waiting until the horn just won't play at all before bringing them in,
> is hard to understand.
its not always the band director or private teacher's fault - many times we're telling the kids, almost daily, get this horn fixed...
but in many cases, the kids families have financial issues, and can't afford repairs. if the school doesn't own clarinets for handing out to economically challenged kids, then what we tell them, is, tell your parents to take this to (insert name of local music store here) and have it repaired. many of them simply can not afford to have it fixed.
we had one beginning 6th grade clarinet player this year with all of the pads on the lower joint either torn or totally gone (nothing but a bare cup and some residual shellac). we told her every single day for a month - have it overhauled. the band director called her mom several times, said the same thing. her mom simply can not afford the work - so the kid went through class without a functioning instrument for an entire year. (well, open g down to middle c worked, but not much else). sad but true. the school had no funds to have her horn fixed, or to provide her with a school owned one. her mom bought the horn for $15 at a flea market - and that was a major commitment for her, financing wise. she signed up for band again next year. go figure....
so in many cases we do tell the kids and parents to have the horns fixed, but they don't ... or tell them to upgrade to a better instrument, but they can afford to ... so they end up failing in music. you wouldn't believe some of the junk some of my students play on ...
maybe the solution is tell the poor kids you can't be in band... but i'd sure hate to be the one making that call. we have to give the opportunity to all of them who sigh up.
>always get the very best instrument you can afford, and keep it in top >shape.
yup, excellent advice. unfortunately you need some funds to learn music. sadly, many students cant affort a working horn, reeds, metronomes, lessons, etc.
maybe bill gates would care to donate a few billion to a trust fund for beginning music students...
and y'all don't want to get me going on the condition of school owned bass clarinets as someone mentioned earlier in the thread. i too have seen several promising students fail at bass due to the horn being in disrepair, and the school not having budget to deal with it.
i agree with susan's comments on the effects of learning on bad horns - causes all sorts of bad habits.
regards,
Paul
- Dallas, Tx (pvt teacher)
- Paul Dods
Dallas, Texas
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Bass1193
Date: 2004-06-28 04:22
Hey all!
This is a great question. I've wondered the same things for a while myself. Susan's and Saxlite's comments are very interesting. I'm going to email these comments to my band director immediately! My school owns several absolutely top of the line instruments, but they're in such poor shape that a new student model would be better. The bass clarinet I used before I got my 1193 was horribly frustrating, and it was the better conditioned of the two the school owned. That horn was my inspiration for getting my 1193. We were playing Inglesina, and about twenty or so measures in there is a fun soli with the tubas and bass clarinets. But there's a jump near the end from throat A to clarion G, and the Bundy I was playing couldn't do it! I wonder if it would have worked better for me if my band director didn't do this:
> the teachers/band directors let kids
> struggle with horns with many faults, waiting until the horn
> just won't play at all before bringing them in
My band director does this with everything we own. We have two, TWO, mid-fifties mark sixes, and they're prsctically a pile of keys. Very disappointing. This all goes back to the unfortunately limited budget that many directors have to manage everything with. How is this oversight affecting the ability of the futer's musicians? Is this planet doomed to a future of poor musicianship? : (
Cheers, or not
Sean
p.s. I'm a youngster yet, and I hope what I'm saying is right, but if it's not then give me a shout so that I may stand corrected!
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Igloo Bob
Date: 2004-06-28 04:43
In some cases it may be that parent/band director is lacking the funds to get the instrument fixed, as pewd and Bass1193 discussed (certainly, the almost nation-wide cuts to school budgets isn't helping things. No child left behind, indeed!, and the fine arts programs are usually among the first to feel the effects of school budget cuts), but in some cases, as at my high school, the director just doesn't know anything about the instrument. To be fair, our director is an awesome guy and an incredible musician, but when it comes to Clarinets, he has absolutely no clue. As Bass Clarinet section leader for the past few years, I can't count the number of times he's asked me to take a school-owned Bass out into the hall and find out what's wrong with it, and oftentimes the instruments are in such ill-repair that I could just as easily write on my note to the local repair techs (who also seem to know little of clarinets, if my firsthand experience of their work is any indication) that "everything is wrong" as make a list. When you have a situation where funds isn't an issue, but you live in an area with no teacher knowledgeable about the clarinet, and mediocre at best repair techs, you might as well have a fund problem, you'll still suffer the same way.
Regarding the Bill Gates idea - that may actually be a possibility. I'm told that Mr. Gates has quite a soft spot for minorities and the underpriviledged, and certainly musicians who can't afford an instrument and are forced to play on bits and pieces of what used to be instruments could be defined as that. Organization would be a difficulty, though. We'd have to start an organization, establish some credability, etc, I would think. At the very least, someone would have to oversee to make sure that the funds did indeed get to those who need them most.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Bass1193
Date: 2004-06-28 04:50
Your sense of humor is great, Iggy-Bob (I hope you're trying to be funny, not just me misunderstanding you!) But in all seriousness, your idea is intriguing. Does anything like that exist presently?
p.s. I'm a youngster yet, and I hope what I'm saying is right, but if it's not then give me a shout so that I may stand corrected!
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Igloo Bob
Date: 2004-06-28 05:04
Underpriveledged people get stuck with underpriveledged senses of humor. And underpriveledged luck with uploading marching band music as well, it isn't going as well as I hoped, but that's completely off-topic...
In any case, we could contact him (or more likely, the guy who gives away his money, whoever that may be) and at least try. Earlier this year some of us actually considered asking Mr. Gates for money to start an Alaskan marching band, our entire premise being that half of us are poor, and about 1/3 the band is non-white (we're underprivledged _and_ minorities! Score!), and that somewhere along the way the way, we'd probably be playing for underprivledged people. Shaky at best, but I still think we should've given it a try! There's always the car wash...
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Bass1193
Date: 2004-06-28 05:14
That would be a great idea. Mr Gates would probably require you to wear uniforms designed by/on Microsoft computers. Just imagine! Shakos with a built in chip to track each persons progress in the drill and to show everybody on a screen exactly how they're not dressing properly. You'd be a fine group!
p.s. I'm a youngster yet, and I hope what I'm saying is right, but if it's not then give me a shout so that I may stand corrected!
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Igloo Bob
Date: 2004-06-28 05:21
Or perhaps our uniforms would crash during the middle of a performance, and we'd get stuck with the blue hat of death. "Error, 3rd flute encountered an illegal operation on path 0x83929B, and must now close. Press any key to return to Microsoft Uniforms."
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Bass1193
Date: 2004-06-28 05:27
That would be great! A true demonstration of superior USA engineering.
p.s. I'm a youngster yet, and I hope what I'm saying is right, but if it's not then give me a shout so that I may stand corrected!
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: JMcAulay
Date: 2004-06-28 15:12
Hey, Bob: "Underprivileged"? I thought we were still working on "socio-economically disadvantaged." Maybe I need to go back to a PC class or two.
Your original question is a good one. Some time back, a director setting up a new program at an obviously well-heeled private school asked for opinions on his intent to provide R-13s to all beginning students. He didn't like the opinions offered, which were almost universally that this would be a waste of money. But no one opined that it would in any way delay the onset of good play by the students.
Bob, if you play as well as you write, you'll do well with music.
Regards,
John
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Igloo Bob
Date: 2004-06-28 19:09
Quote:
"Underprivileged"? I thought we were still working on "socio-economically disadvantaged." Maybe I need to go back to a PC class or two.
Ha! Well in any case, it certainly isn't the "downtrodden" anymore, is it? That's the neat thing about euphemisms, the longer the word, the fewer of us who know what it means, and fewer to be offended!
Quote:
Your original question is a good one. Some time back, a director setting up a new program at an obviously well-heeled private school asked for opinions on his intent to provide R-13s to all beginning students. He didn't like the opinions offered, which were almost universally that this would be a waste of money. But no one opined that it would in any way delay the onset of good play by the students.
Did he go through with that plan, if you know? It would be nice to see the results from that, perhaps something we all missed.
Quote:
Bob, if you play as well as you write, you'll do well with music.
Y'know, I just went back through my posts and realized that every time, I spelled underprivileged with a d. I hope I play better than I spell when I'm suffering from lack of sleep! Actually, I was pretty sure that I was spelling it wrong, I just didn't have the energy or desire to go dig out a dictionary to find out. But thanks for the compliment! Odds are that I don't, however. But then, my AP English teacher from last teacher would probably tell you that I do neither well! "Passive voice, passive voice! Only failures use passive voice!" I always made sure to sneak at least one instance of pv in, to test her resolve of flunking every paper she read that contained any in it. I usually passed.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: JMcAulay
Date: 2004-06-28 20:26
Igloo Bob responded: "Did he go through with that plan, if you know? It would be nice to see the results from that, perhaps something we all missed."
Unfortunately, some people (many?) who say "I want your opinion" really mean "I want your support." Not having received too very much, he seems to have gone away as if he'd been run out of town on a rail -- which really wasn't so. He just didn't like the opinions expressed.
Regards,
John
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
The Clarinet Pages
|
 |
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
