 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: javier garcia m
Date: 2003-05-19 12:39
I've asked a french friend to bring me some catalogues. He called Marigaux for their clarinets, and the answer was they have stopped the production.
They only make oboes.
Anyone know a little more about this?
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2003-05-19 12:51
Oh yes, as SML (Strasser, Marigaux, and Le????), they made clarinets and some very outstanding saxes in the 1950s and 60s (coveted by collectors). Later, SML made stencil saxes for King and I assume also made the company's clarinets. The King Super 20s saxes that came from SML in the 1970s and 80s were not quite as good as the ones made in Cleveland by King in the 50s and 60s but they were not bad at all. Maybe not up to the Selmers of the day but vey nice.
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Author: javier garcia m
Date: 2003-05-19 13:27
Marigaux made clarinets until 2002, I have the 2002 price list (not here to quote) and they put 2 models of Bb and A clarinets.
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Author: Vytas
Date: 2003-05-19 20:44
"Marigaux" is the model name for the professional level clarinets/instruments made by SML
Strasser Marigaux & Lemaire was founded in 1934 by three partners: Charles Strasser, a businessman who was born in Switzerland; Marigaux, an instrument maker who trained at Buffet-Crampon, where his father was "premier ouvrier," and Lemaire. After the death of Lemaire many years ago, Strasser and Marigaux bought their partner's shares and the company became known as "Strasser-Marigaux." Marigaux died in the early 1970s, leaving Strasser the sole owner of the company. Strasser then sold SML (it continues to use these initials) to a holding company.
Marigaux 350 marketed by King in the 70's is absolutely remarkable.
Vytas Krass
Post Edited (2004-06-11 21:02)
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Author: diz
Date: 2003-05-19 22:52
Their oboes are wonderful and highly regarded - has anyone played these clarinets and do you have an opinion on them?
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2003-05-20 14:55
About 15 years ago I purchased a new Marigaux S200 (intermediate model) clarinet (there was a one-time-only purchase of them by The Woodwind & Brasswind and they were selling them for $350 US, about half the retail price of an R-13 at that time). It was far superior to the Buffet R-13 my instructor had picked out for me some years earlier, so I sold the Buffet for twice what the Marigaux had cost me, and was happier for it. And as I said, the S200 was their intermediate model. Later on I sold the Marigaux at a time when I was playing bass clarinet almost exclusively and didn't have much need for a soprano clarinet, but not because there was anything wrong with the Marigaux.
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Author: Fred
Date: 2003-05-20 15:21
I have a King Marigaux which is a very nice clarinet. The keywork, though of high quality, is a bit different from Buffet - and thus takes me a bit of time to get used to. It also acts like an instrument tuned to 442, which I suppose it quite possible considering the source. I can get it down pretty well, but it requires a bit more adjustment than my R13s (needs adjusting at middle joint and at barrel.) That's the same procedure I use on another clarinet that I know is 442-444.
Overall Assessment: Very nice tone, beautiful wood, beautiful workmanship.
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Author: diz
Date: 2003-05-20 22:25
Fred - can you possibly post a picture of your Marigaux? I'd be interested to see what looks like, thanks.
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Author: javier garcia m
Date: 2003-05-21 13:24
In their 2002 (january) price list is shown the "RS Symphonie" model (A and Bb, with and without rollers). 1.658 Euros for the Bb and 1.980 for the A. Very cheap.
Has someone tried this model?
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Author: Fred
Date: 2003-05-21 23:47
Attachment: KM-2.JPG (69k)
Attachment: KM-3.JPG (83k)
diz, here's two photos to give you the general idea. Contact me directly if you would like any others.
NOTE: This is NOT a sale - merely an exchange of information on an instrument no longer produced.
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Author: Vytas
Date: 2003-05-22 03:41
Fred,
It looks like King sold several Marigaux models. I've seen King Marigaux 285. I own King Marigaux 350 their top of the line clarinet with silver plated keywork and gold plated springs and the densest wood I ever seen. Actually I think it's not even grenadilla. My Marigaux doesn't have "T" under the logo. Do you know what "T" stands for? Model T?
Vytas
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Author: Fred
Date: 2003-05-22 11:20
I've really no idea about the T; it seems such a shame that knowledge of instruments manufactured only 30-40 yrs ago is lost so quickly. Incidently, my KM has a 3-digit serial number!
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Author: Vytas
Date: 2003-05-22 14:14
There is no doubt "285" and "350" are model numbers. King Marigoux 285 I've seen had 4-digit serial number. My King Marigaux also has 4-digit serial number.
SML Marigaux models for 2002:
SML Marigaux 200 (S-200), standard model, Bb, nickel-plated keys
SML Marigaux 201 (S-201), standard model, Bb, silver-plated keys
SML Marigaux 300 (S-300), professional model, Bb, nickel-plated keys
SML Marigaux 301 (S-301), professional model, Bb, silver -plated keys
SML Marigaux 351 "RS" Symphonie in the key of Bb, top professional model
SML Marigaux 352 "RS" Symphonie in the key of A, top professional model
Vytas
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Author: clarinetmama
Date: 2003-05-22 15:00
I have a Marigaux that I bought on ebay two years ago. It is a really nice clarinet. A friend who teaches clarinet said the workmanship reminded hin on buffet. He is a member of the buffet mafia, so I felt that comment was extremely positive. I had mine overhauled by my tech. So for about 500 bucks (the cost of the horn and overhaul) I have a terrific clarinet.
Jean
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2003-05-22 16:04
Is it possible that M [SML] made the great King Super 20 saxes? I'm now learning how to play a VG Super 20 Bari, belongs to a good friend, who wants me to join into a ?sextet? to play it on Al Bellotto arrangements! Am kinda old for that game!! The only bari's I can recall that were equal or better were a Mark 6 and an older Conn ?16?. On the softer,very low, passages I'll go to my bass cl and pretend to be reading bari!! Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2003-05-22 18:44
Don,
Marigaux had nothing to do with the King Super 20 saxes, which were designed and manufactured entirely in the US. King's only connection with SML/Marigaux was that King marketed the Marigaux woodwinds for a few years during the 1970s (analogous to the marketing of Keilwerth-made saxes by first Herb Couf, then Armstrong, then Conn).
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Author: Vytas
Date: 2003-05-22 21:04
David S. wrote:
***It was far superior to the Buffet R-13 my instructor had picked out for me some years earlier, so I sold the Buffet for twice what the Marigaux had cost me, and was happier for it.***
I have to agree with David. King Marigaux 350 is my main horn and I use vintage R13 for backup. Go figure!
Vytas
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Author: Fred
Date: 2003-05-22 23:13
Just checked out the serial number on my King Marigaux! It's #28X. It may indeed be a "Model T", but I bought it in unused condition a couple of years ago!!
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Author: Vytas
Date: 2003-05-23 00:34
Fred,
4-digit serial number on my King Maridaux 350 appears on the BOTTOM of each joint. *350* is on the TOP of the Upper-Joint only.
No "T" under the logo!
Vytas
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Author: Vytas
Date: 2004-06-11 21:49
A month or so ago I've worked on a great horn from SML - the King Marigaux Model 355. I've never heard or seen of this model before so I thought I would pass the info.
The horn had 3-digit serial number inscribed on the BOTTOM of each joint. *355* was on the TOP of the Upper-Joint only and the mysterious "T" was under the logo!
I found original warranty registration card with the info in the case. (check pictures).
Post Edited (2004-06-11 21:59)
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Author: Vytas
Date: 2004-06-11 22:03
I've compared my King Marigaux 350 with the Marigaux 355 and noticed some differences.
Marigaux 355 had wider 12ths than my Marigaux 350.
Throat Bb was better/clearer on the 350.
Pad cups on the '350' were smaller than on the '355'. Actually "Marigaux 350" has the smallest key cups I've ever seen. I had to order 8.5mm pads for the Upper-Joint because the usual 9/9.5mm pads are way too big. Smaller pads = better venting and that probably is one of the secrets why this clarinet sounds so good.
I've noticed that King "Marigaux 355" had more Traditional features than the King "Marigaux 350" has. I would speculate that the *T* stands for Traditional model.
Vytas Krass
Pro clarinet technician.
Custom clarinet mouthpiece maker.
Former pro clarinet player.
Post Edited (2006-04-11 03:49)
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Author: Fred
Date: 2004-06-12 03:35
Vytas, I've still got my model "T". And it's still one of the finest pieces of craftsmanship I've ever seen in a clarinet.
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Author: jbutler ★2017
Date: 2004-06-12 09:17
Attachment: SML1.jpg (59k)
Here is a pic of an older SML. I've not a clue on the model.
jbutler
Post Edited (2004-06-12 09:19)
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Author: Douglas
Date: 2004-06-12 15:12
This is just great, guys. I'd have to go to 10 conventions to overhear all the information you've just posted. Thanks.
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Author: D Dow
Date: 2004-06-12 20:25
I played for several years on Mariguaux 350s right up to studies in France with Dangain. I unfortunately sold my matched set in the late 80s...big mistake....they had a really nice ringing tone.
David Dow
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Author: Wes
Date: 2004-06-13 20:41
Earl Handlon in the Minneapolis Symphony in the 40s and 50s sold Marigeaux clarinets to his students although he personally played Buffets(bass and soprano). He considered them to be fine horns although he was a seller. I instead bought a Noblet with a low extra vent key on the F/C key and in a white leather case.
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Author: eskil
Date: 2004-06-13 22:17
Hey there!
Anyone who knows anything about the SML Strasser clarinets?
I think I read somewhere that the Strasser was SMLs intermediate model - the name Marigaux signifying the top of the line model. About what kind of quality would I be able to expect from a SML Strasser clarinet? I have a "King Marigaux by SML" alto sax that plays just wonderful, so I'm a bit curious about SML clarinets. What would "intermediate" mean, in this case?
Would it be a professional quality clarinet but without polycylindrical bore or whatever (kind of like a Selmer Centered Tone or something, you know, "what used to be the top of the line model before we started shipping the newer, improved models", like), or would it be cheapish in quality and workmanship?
If the SML Strasser is something like the Centered Tone (great tone and great build quality, but slightly inferior intonation to a more modern clarinet), it would still be a nice clarinet, but if it doesn't have build quality or tone, it wouldn't. Anyone who knows anything about those SML Strassers, would it be worth looking at one of them if they turn up somewhere reasonably near where I live?
Best regards, Eskil.
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Author: ohsuzan
Date: 2004-06-14 02:33
Eskil --
There is a beautiful Strasser SML for sale on Ebay right now, if you want to have a look.
Susan
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Author: Vytas
Date: 2004-06-14 03:15
SML "Strasser" or King "Strasser" (marketed by King) - was the student model.
Vytas Krass
Pro clarinet technician.
Custom clarinet mouthpiece maker.
Former pro clarinet player.
Post Edited (2004-06-14 03:18)
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Author: eskil
Date: 2004-06-14 15:01
I checked out the ebay Strasser - looks nice. I found another one much closer to me, though, here in Sweden - it is on its way via mail to me from a shop right now, for evaluation and buying (if the evaluation works out nicely).
One of the clarinet technicians at the shop in question, (Windcorp in Gothenburg, Sweden), had some info about the Strasser clarinets: according to him, the Strasser name was used by SML for clarinets made by apprentices, as opposed to instruments built by the master builders. According to him, they are NOT students instruments, they are better than that, but they were built by staff that were not fully trained yet (as in not yet a master builder - they were in no way poorly trained, they were just still not master builders).
So some Strassers might be lacking in some respect compared to the top level SMLs, or they might not - it depends on exactly how good the apprentice in question was (and some Strassers might be just as good as the top level SML clarinets). But they wouldn't let a bad instrument through, though - and the apprentices wouldn't be promoted to master builders if their clarinets weren't of top notch quality, so they would obviously do their best.
He said that this is what they said at SML, when he asked them about it a few years ago. Oh yeah, and he said that he has never seen an instrument of any kind from SML that was bad, Strassers or not, so the apprentices must have been good, if the story is true. (But then again, he was trying to sell me a Strasser clarinet, so...)
/Eskil
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Author: ohsuzan
Date: 2004-06-15 01:59
Well, I did something I've never done before. I bought a cheap clarinet on Ebay!
It's a King Lemaire (the intermediate between the Strasser and the Marigaux). At $49.99, I was the only bidder. It looks like it is pretty old and well-played, but otherwise in OK shape. And it has a very cool case.
I am really looking forward to trying this instrument, so I can see what all the commotion is about in regard to these horns -- I hope! Stay tuned for a report.
Susan
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Author: DTH
Date: 2004-06-15 07:51
Susan, I have a King Lemaire from the early 70's and it was my first clarinet. It played very well but was pitched a little high. Besides that , it was very solid and enjoyed it for many years. I hope your Lemaire plays well - good luck!
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Author: Wayne Thompson
Date: 2004-06-16 05:59
I have an SML bass clarinet I bought on eBay a month or so ago. I'm not ready to judge it, though. For the record, it is SN 605 and has a large SML with a Strasser Marigeaux under that, and a Paris, Made in France under that. It is marked only on the bell. I will write a note sometime in the future about how it plays.
Wayne Thompson
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Author: eskil
Date: 2004-06-19 22:59
Just in case anyone is waiting eagerly to hear what my Strasser looked and sounded like, when I got it from the shop...
When the DHL package arrived, it turned out it contained a very worn and battered leather case containing one very worn clarinet - the bell ring rattled like some toy and one of the rings on the barrel fell of when I took the barrel up. Uh-oh. After having felt disappointment run back and forth over and through me, I started looking closer at the clarinet. It actually didn't look battered at all, it just looked very worn from playing. No bruises, nicks, dents or anything, except one small crack repair. And the pads all looked almost new, and there was no excessive play anywhere, and the cork joints looked new too. The suction test showed that both halves were airtight, or at least reasonably so. And the general level of workmanship looked good, about what I would expect from a professional model, or at least an intermediate model. If it indeed is a student's model, it is the best looking student's model I have ever seen - certainly a whole different level than that horrible Kohlert from the sixties I tried once, or a Dixon (Taiwanese, I think) or whatever. Only the bell ring looked cheap - I actually wonder if the bell ring is the original one, it looks kind of thin and cheapishly tin-like, nothing like the rest of the clarinet at all. The bell itself is the original one, though.
Having regained some level of confidence in my prospective purchase, I put it together and tried it out. Wow! A bright, warm, sweet and summery sound, very much what I was hoping for (my SML alto sax has that sound too - is it the SML sound or am I just lucky?). Think "Summertime" by Gershwin. Playing against my tuner showed that the intonation was spotless - about the same as my Yamaha CX, and better than my Selmer Series 10. (I am not suggesting that Selmer can't build clarinets, it is just a fact that my intonation is better on the Yamaha and the Strasser than on the Selmer. Maybe it's me. But I like my Selmer anyway.) The Strasser turned out to be very easyblowing, and very comfortably laid out. Perhaps a bigger difference in sound when you cross the register break than on the Selmer, but certainly not as big a difference as on my Yamaha. (Maybe it is my own fault, but on the Yamaha it is very easy to hear when I cross the register break, the sound changes noticably. A whole lot, really.)
A quick visit to my local technician confirmed that the Strasser was in good shape, and that the price was very reasonable - the servicing it obviously has received recently, pretty much must have cost about as much as I am paying for the clarinet. She also confirmed that the service had been carried out competently and that the crack repair was done correctly, and that it wasn't in need of servicing now or anytime soon (except of course the bell ring). She even said that it looked like a really good clarinet, provided I liked the sound of it - she is a Buffet mafia member, so you can imagine what she feels about sweet and summery sounds coming from a clarinet. Her first instinctive reaction when she heard me say "SML Strasser" was to recommend me an entry-level Buffet instead, as a better buy. But that was before she had seen it, and before she realized that it had been serviced recently. After having inspected it, she took her entry-level Buffet recommendation back and said that the Strasser was better than that. (I'd like to point out here that when I bought my Selmer Series 10 she also tried to persuade me to buy an entry-level Buffet instead, and she never backed down that time. But maybe it is something about Selmers that make Buffet people react like that.)
So I am keeping this little sweetie - it has personality and integrity. I can't say that it is better than my Selmer or my Yamaha, but it is at least able to hold its own against them. For me, the intonation is better on the Strasser than on the Selmer, and the change in tone over the register break is lesser than on the Yamaha. And it has a very nice voice - I can't really describe what they sound like, but the Yamaha sounds somehow "drier" and woodier (but still pretty warm), perhaps like a nice summer day under the shadow of a big old tree. The Strasser sounds very warm, very dreamy, very summery, more like a hot day in the sun. The Selmer, I have a hard time describing - bright, crystal clear, cool, warm, a little hollower (it can't be all of that at the same time, can it?). Perhaps more like eating ice-cream in a cool, air-conditioned restaurant on a hot summer day?
Also, the overall build quality of the Strasser seems about equal to that of the others, perhaps slightly lower, but still about professional-looking. After all, the Selmer Series 10 and the Yamaha CX are more like top of the line models (or pretty near, anyway), while the Strasser was the "cheap" model. I wouldn't describe it as "cheap-looking", and it doesn't feel cheap (or sound cheap) at all when you play it. I wonder what the price-tag was, really, when they were new, they can't have been _that_ cheap compared to what else was on the market?
All in all, the Strasser SML seems to be a nice little clarinet, definitely one worth checking out if you happen to see one. Especially considering that they seem to sell for very little - you can get pro sound for student prices. But if you prefer Buffet over Selmer, you will probably hate the sound of this one. Me, I love it.
/Eskil
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Author: ohsuzan
Date: 2004-06-20 02:45
Eskil --
My King Lemaire has also arrived. It is not in playable condition -- except for the open notes, and the lower altissimo. But from that small sample, I really do like the sound. It is quite a bit like what you are describing -- a sweet, fresh, centered sound.
The keywork is good and the plating is shiny, even -- but as you mentioned, the rings on the female side of each joint seem not to be made of the same material as the keys. They look like the old pot metal that I have seen on some '50's student clarinets.
I am sending this clarinet out for restoration, and I do have high hopes that it will be a "player".
To be continued . . .
Susan
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Author: Wes
Date: 2004-06-21 07:14
There is a photo and description of a boxwood clarinet made by Lemery in a book I have. The instrument is from the early 1800s. Is there a connection with the Lemaire maker?
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Author: PGJ
Date: 2004-06-25 12:56
I have a SML clar with the ´crown´logotype on top
and below, " Rochér Thomas" ´handwritten´, under that
MADE BY
MARIGAUX
PARIS
FRANCE
serial no 35xxx, and am curious how this fits in
with King, Strasser etc.
Any knowledge about this ?
regards / pegge
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